133 replies to this topic

[Spinning Burr]

TheForce, on 27 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

the AC10 is crap compared to grouping 3 SRM6's.

Technically if you're not equipping Artemis (which is a waste for SRM's I think) then the 12 tons of AC10 will get you four SRM6's at 3 tons a piece if not counting ammo requirement of 1 ton vs 4 tons, or exactly 3 SRM6's with 3 tons ammo in exchange for your AC10 that still has no ammo. That's an alpha 45 or 60 compared to... 10.

[Kobold]

The AC10 is one of the lower BV to tonnage weapons in tabletop as well. It has a similar BV to the UAC5, but weighs more and generates more heat. Just another reason I'd love to see BV taken into account in matchmaking here as well. So sad PGI has nixed the idea.

[Stringburka]

While I agree that AC-10 is a bit on the weak side, I think you make an unfair comparision in that you seem to change what you compare to based on which is best - basically, you compare the effects of the ERPPC to the effects of the AC-10, but the heat of the PPC to the heat of the AC-10.

AC-10 vs PPC:
+ 20% higher DPS due to shorter reload
+ Causes only 45% of the heat per second of a PPC
+ No minimum range
- Only 83% of the optimal range
- Only 15 shots per ton
- Heavier/takes more slots
~ They have about the same half damage range from what I can see

AC-10 vs ERPPC:
+ 20% higher DPS due to shorter reload
+ Causes only 33% of the heat per second of a PPC
- Only 55% of the optimal range
- Only 15 shots per ton
- Heavier/takes more slots


For a build that is otherwise light on energy hot weapons, the PPC is the better choice. If you're already running 4 medlasses and a largelas, go for the AC-10 (unless a sniper).

[PurpleNinja]

What about dual Large Lasers?

[Lord Ikka]

Josef Nader, on 27 February 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

5 fewer points of heat is not insignificant. It also has a longer maximum range ([ur=http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#weapon_ballistic]source[/url]), shorter cooldown, and better DPS.

It's not much, but from a purely numbers standpoint the AC10 is better if you have the weight.

The weight with 2 tons of ammo is 14 tons. That's a lot of weight for a weapon that has limited ammo and the potential to have ammo explosions. Like I said, 14 tons= a PPC/ERPPC and 7 heatsinks. That's a lot of heat dissipation, no ammo, and with the ERs you have longer range compared to the 10. Faster fire is fine, and dps on the AC10 is higher, but that makes the AC10 an almost exclusive brawler weapon (snipers need precision not speed which is why the AC2/UAC5 aren't premier sniper weapons) and the better brawler weapon is the UAC5 or AC20 for dps/alpha damage.

[Padic]

The Gauss Rife also weighs (almost) the same as an AC-10 and deals 50% more damage at a much longer range with negligible heat.

Really, the only advantage I'd give the AC-10 over the Gauss is that it isn't a bomb (all its ammo is, but at least you can allocate that wherever you want it).

[NocturnalBeast]

I have one on my DDC for when my lazers are cooling down and my missiles are reloading.

[Stringburka]

Spinning Burr, on 27 February 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

The AC2 is like mounting a single small laser except that each small laser is 0.5 tons while each AC2 is 6+1 tons.

Uhm... No. The AC-2 is currently bugged which reduces it's efficiency, but it's DPS is still slightly higher than 2 medium lasers and it's range is absurd.

If they fix the bug the DPS of an AC/2 will be the same as four small lasers (or slightly more than three medium lasers).

Lord Ikka, on 27 February 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

The weight with 2 tons of ammo is 14 tons. That's a lot of weight for a weapon that has limited ammo and the potential to have ammo explosions. Like I said, 14 tons= a PPC/ERPPC and 7 heatsinks. That's a lot of heat dissipation, no ammo, and with the ERs you have longer range compared to the 10.

If using SHS, 7 heatsinks are enough to keep an ERPPC heat neutral if you fire it once every 15.7 seconds. If using DHS, you can fire it once every 11.2 seconds but then it takes up 24 slots.
So if you want to snipe or "hit and run" it works well, but if you're going to be in close combat you need to be a fair bit colder than that. Of course you have additional cooling from your engine, but using that for ERPPC's means you have less for the MedLasses so that's also a cost.

Edited by Stringburka, 27 February 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Spinning Burr]

I think the ballistics world has a favored child program: gauss and UAC5. It has a ******* child program: AC5, AC10, and LBX10. And it has a middle child program, where the middle child doesn't shine like the favored child individually, but at least a pack of middle children can be respectable: AC2 and AC20.

[Elizander]

AC/10 is 3 tons shy of a Gauss Rifle. I would just make room for a Gauss Rifle.

[KKillian]

Ragor, on 27 February 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Tell this my dual AC10 + 4 ML K2 ("Dude") running heatneutral at 81 kph with maxed out armor and 90 shots (45 salvos) for the two AC10.

This guy absolutely destroyed me, I underestimated his ac10's and didnt prioritize him due to his build, he then smashed my face.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Aethon, on 27 February 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Because the PPC does not fit in ballistic slots.

Also, the AC/10 has the coolest reloading sound in the game.

I think coolest reloading sound have AC/2

[Terror Teddy]

TheForce, on 27 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

the AC10 is crap compared to grouping 3 SRM6's.

And MG's are crap compared to quad ERPPC's - that made about as much sense.

AC10: Pinpoint Damage - Twice the range of SRM - 1 slot more than the X3 SRM - More Tonnage - Shoots faster
SRM: Spread out damage - Limited Range

Not a bad weapon but due to the slight difference in tonnage and space requirement one tends to go with the Gauss or AC20 for that extra OMPH!

[Stringburka]

Padic, on 27 February 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

The Gauss Rife also weighs (almost) the same as an AC-10 and deals 50% more damage at a much longer range with negligible heat.

Really, the only advantage I'd give the AC-10 over the Gauss is that it isn't a bomb (all its ammo is, but at least you can allocate that wherever you want it).

And ammo is MUCH harder to hit. Ammo basically only blows up by (ER)PPC's, gausses, AC10 and AC20 (3.5% chance for each in a torso/side torso/arm, double that in the legs) and if you're really unlucky they might by an (U)AC-5.

A gauss has a huge chance of getting destroyed not only by the above but also by 20+ laser damage to the section (such as the popular 4 ML setup), AC-2 barrages, SRM barrages (only two missiles need to crit) and even LRM barrages.

Ammo blowing up is pretty rare unless you have lots of it in the same section and often get armor stripped. A gauss is basically lost as soon as armor is gone.

[sC4r]

well yea you are right there

vs ppc -> damage/weight wise ppc is much better -> weight less and projectile is much faster though generates much more heat
vs ac20 for 2 more tons and few more crits it has much bigger dmg -> better at any close range
vs uac5 this one weights less and has a higher potential dps + better range
vs lbx -> -1 ton and crit but does spread damage instead (unfortunately)
vs gauss -> for +3 tons deals +5 damage with no heat at pretty much any range


so yea ac10 is kinda lackluster

[LordBraxton]

Spinning Burr, on 27 February 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Let's compare AC10 to PPC and to ERPPC. I challenge anyone to list a single reason why they would mount an AC10 over a PPC or ERPPC if they have the option of picking one at the same hardpoint location. The PPCs are 7 tons vs 12 tons. Unlimited ammo vs needing at least 1-2 tons ammo that can explode your entire section housing it. Both do identical 10 points "ballistic" damage immediately to a targeted location. The PPCs now have an anti-ECM benefit to a successful hit in addition to 10 points damage. The projectile speed feels about twice as fast. AC10 slug is still like firing an AC20 shell. Recycle time of 2 secs vs 3 secs. Heat generation on AC10 is NOT negligible and not that much less than basic PPC after last heavy beam tweaks and patches. PPC's have superior max range to AC10. PPC shot doesn't drop at far distance, while AC10 sniping requires aiming correction for bullet speed AND bullet arc.

Let's recap:
PPC/ERPPC is half the weight (AC10 ammo included)
Same "ballistic" damage plus anti-ECM bonus per hit
"Twice" as fast projectile speed with no projectile arc
No ammo explosion liability
50% faster recycle time for roughly 50% more heat from PPC and 100% more heat from ERPPC
20% more range from PPC and 80% more range from ERPPC in exchange for heat

Now why would you mount an AC10 on a mech? It looks like an automatic liability. If you can't mount a beam and need or want to mount ballistics, that's fine. But why AC10?

good point AC10 used to be amazing but the PPC just replaced it

[Odanan]

Kobold, on 27 February 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

The AC10 is one of the lower BV to tonnage weapons in tabletop as well. It has a similar BV to the UAC5, but weighs more and generates more heat. Just another reason I'd love to see BV taken into account in matchmaking here as well. So sad PGI has nixed the idea.

Indeed, it is one of the worst weapons in TT (like other ACs). But this is easily fixed by increasing the RoF in video games.

[TheForce]

DocBach, on 27 February 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

AC/10 still has way less heat than either a PPC or triple SRM's - it gives you longer endurance before shutting down.

what are you going to take in a CN9-A...AC10 or 3 SRM6?

[KKillian]

TheForce, on 27 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

what are you going to take in a CN9-A...AC10 or 3 SRM6?

Because all mechs have missle hardpoints right?

[Tickdoff Tank]

Lord Ikka, on 27 February 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Well, I think the A/C 10 suffers from two disadvantages against other ACs- It doesn't do the sheer damage of a AC20, and it isn't as fast as a UAC5, meaning that its stuck in the middle ground with no real advantages over taking on of the others.

Versus the PPC, well you can pack in seven heatsinks and a PPC for the same tonnage as a AC10 and 2 tons of ammo. Seven heatsinks is enough to keep the PPC well cooled, with unlimited shots.

The PPC+DHS will take up a lot more space than an AC10+ammo+DHS.