24 replies to this topic

[LORD ORION]

The problem
1) ECM/SSRM light mechs have a nigh insurmountable advantage over other light mechs
2) ECM/LRM mechs can fire indiscrimnately without retaliation. (not so much a major advantage as a weird design paradigm [cloaked ships that can fire without breaking cloak etc...])

The solution
When you are in disrupt mode, lock on weapons cannot lock.

Choices
1) Be in counter mode and exposed when you want to fire SSRMs / LRMs
2) Don't use lock-on missiles in your missile hard points

Suspension of Disbelief
There is precedence for this in the "real world" as well. Locking a target with a guided weapon requires aggressive telemetry gathering that exposes your intent to the target. You should not be able to do this without yourself being exposed in the game.

Edited by LORD ORION, 27 February 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Khanahar]

Here here!

An attack at the real root of the problem: the synergy of SSRM and ECM. And allowing SSRM locks when on "counter" seems to get rid of the problems posed by, for instance, the Loki Prime.

[Chavette]

Things like that would make too much sense.

Its easier to create 3-4 counters for it, and then to balance it out create 3-4 counters to the counters.

Finally, we'll be surprised if new users get melted in seconds and don't understand the game.

[Kurshuk]

I'm liking it. I run DDC atlas, but I don't typically run in light mechs much so I have the Com2d and I could buy the 3l raven, but they don't really interest me. For the first time I was ganged up on by 4 ravens at least 2 of which had ecm (saw it kick off when the PPC hit.) SSRMS were plentiful and very difficult to fight. No one was aware of my peril because there are no voice comms and I was under the ECM bracket.

I think this is a good idea. I think it would be better to put in game voice chat that's integrated with MWO and allows you to talk between PUG teammates. I find it ridiculous that the game doesn't have it's own voice system since it's supposed to be so much based on teamwork.

How do you work as a team without communication?

Meh, I digress. I like the idea.

Kurshuk

[hammerreborn]

LORD ORION, on 27 February 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

The problem
1) ECM/SSRM light mechs have a nigh insurmountable advantage over other light mechs
2) ECM/LRM mechs can fire indiscrimnately without retaliation. (not so much a major advantage as a weird design paradigm [cloaked ships that can fire without breaking cloak etc...])

The solution
When you are in disrupt mode, lock on weapons cannot lock.

Choices
1) Be in counter mode and exposed when you want to fire SSRMs / LRMs
2) Don't use lock-on missiles in your missile hard points

Suspension of Disbelief
There is precedence for this in the "real world" as well. Locking a target with a guided weapon requires aggressive telemetry gathering that exposes your intent to the target. You should not be able to do this without yourself being exposed in the game.

Great idea, until someone makes a macro (or just uses skill) that disables, fires, and puts it back on before the other guy can get his lock/fire.

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 February 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[Baltasar]

hammerreborn, on 27 February 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Great idea, until someone makes a macro (or just uses skill) that disables, fires, and puts it back on before the other guy can get his lock/fire.

Wouldn't be much faster considering there is no set lock times. I would be more of a hindrance than just doing it yourself.

[hammerreborn]

Well I more meant it toggles, fires, and detoggles with the same click.

For example, you left mouse click, it tries to fire (can't), so it changes to counter, lock goes off, click again, fires, turns on disrupt. As long as you lock on faster than the opponent can notice he can lock on and fire, you still hold streak dominance for just slightly more effort than currently.

The macro just makes it easier than hitting j while tracking with the mouse.

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 February 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[HAV0C]

<S>

Funny, I (in a much more wordy format) said essentially the same thing yesterday.

http://mwomercs.com/...k-srms-and-ecm/

Glad others like the idea and are trying to expand it to others, all-be-it in a different thread.

<S>

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

[TheFlyingScotsman]

LORD ORION, on 27 February 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

The problem
1) ECM/SSRM light mechs have a nigh insurmountable advantage over other light mechs
2) ECM/LRM mechs can fire indiscrimnately without retaliation. (not so much a major advantage as a weird design paradigm [cloaked ships that can fire without breaking cloak etc...])

The solution
When you are in disrupt mode, lock on weapons cannot lock.

Choices
1) Be in counter mode and exposed when you want to fire SSRMs / LRMs
2) Don't use lock-on missiles in your missile hard points

Suspension of Disbelief
There is precedence for this in the "real world" as well. Locking a target with a guided weapon requires aggressive telemetry gathering that exposes your intent to the target. You should not be able to do this without yourself being exposed in the game.

Half the problem is that between the netcode and improperly functioning hitboxes, Ravens (Not only the 3L) have a disproportionate survivability. I will name three examples.

The other day, me and a raven were duking it out, when he decided to stop moving and just aim. I followed suit, and opened into his CT with 5ML. No other subsystem lit up with damage when I struck, but his armor only went from yellow to slightly more orange yellow. Neither of us had any velocity at all.

Just today, A raven was pursued (and survived) by my TBT-7M (Elite xl325), a founders Jenner D, another raven 3L and LRMs from support. When he got out of it, his armor was merely orange in the back, despite taking excessive fire.

Previously, I fired onto a overheated 3L with my DDC, striking RT with an AC20. His armor went from yellow to... yellow.

These are by no means the only encounters that I or any other player have dealt with. ECM atlases are no problem, and are perfectly balanced. On the other hand, Ravens of any variety enjoy disproportionate stats and broken hitboxes. They are: The heaviest light mech, the fastest light mech, the most potent light mech for FP and for heat dispersion, the least easily killed mech in the game, despite being roughly the size of a cicada.

[Kreisel]

Taking away more player ability to properly use the weapon mounted on their mech is not a good solution.

Having a mech that can make it literally impossible for certain mechs to use their weapons without specialized equipment... especially when that equipment is NOT ON stock mech that new players start the game playing as is the larger issue. It hurts the community when ECM takes away from the new player experience and make it less fun or feel less fair.

It's a game, whats even more important than balance is fun. Getting to use all the weapons you put on your mech is fun, being frustrated that you can not use weapons you 'wasted tonnage on' for that match is not fun. Feeling like you have no way to potentially fight back against certain mechs because you happen to be in say... a Stock A1 not fun. Dynamic information warfare that can be counter by smart play an a mix of roughly equal options, fun... one piece of gear to rule them all, much less so.

There are more issues with ECM than just what it does to lock on weapons, mind you this is the MAIN issue with ECM, but their other issues. It's amazing to me how many players don't think about how much of an advantage sensor data is. Is that a Gausscat/AC20 or PPC? are those PCC ER? Are both his legs without armor and in the red for internals but I am wasting my time shooting his Torso? Knowing how damaged targets are and where is very important for making good tactical decisions. A brief sensor blip can give away your being flanked. Forest colony has several hills dotted with trees you can't see through but don't block 'line of sight' for sensors and you can shoot through them to nail mechs which are literally not on your screen by centering on the red box...

Now some of those are advantages ECM should give... but it all adds up to just a little too much when compared to say BAP. How does your suggest address any of those issues? Sorry but it's a terrible idea.

If you want an Anti-missile system then AMS should be the go to option.

[Cest7]

^ Missed the point by the looks of it.

OPs suggestions to counter the overpoweredness of SSRM+ECM are valid and coincide with how I think ECM should be.

Edited by Cest7, 27 February 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[FerretGR]

Pretty sure I remember a scene from the Grey Death Legion books where both friendlies and opposition were affected by an enemy ECM bubble, so this has support in the lore as well. I was thinking something similar earlier.

[Khanahar]

hammerreborn, on 27 February 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Well I more meant it toggles, fires, and detoggles with the same click.

For example, you left mouse click, it tries to fire (can't), so it changes to counter, lock goes off, click again, fires, turns on disrupt. As long as you lock on faster than the opponent can notice he can lock on and fire, you still hold streak dominance for just slightly more effort than currently.

The macro just makes it easier than hitting j while tracking with the mouse.

Well, keep in mind that using such a macro would require a player to get a new lock for every shot (another common suggestion to fix SSRMs). That means reducing RoF substantially, and requiring way more aiming to actually land streaks. Also, means that if the other pilot simply keeps his reticle over the ECMer, he gets a lock at the same time and they trade volleys. Ergo, ECM still an advantage, but not quite so overwhleming.

And if all that were not enough, it would not be difficult to put a cooldown on switching modes (or even making Counter mode reduce enemy missile lock times a la MW4.)

[CrashieJ]

Thinking is banished from this establishment, how dare you bring logic into this discussion.

GOOD DAY, SIR.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

i like this suggestion

[hammerreborn]

Khanahar, on 27 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Well, keep in mind that using such a macro would require a player to get a new lock for every shot (another common suggestion to fix SSRMs). That means reducing RoF substantially, and requiring way more aiming to actually land streaks. Also, means that if the other pilot simply keeps his reticle over the ECMer, he gets a lock at the same time and they trade volleys. Ergo, ECM still an advantage, but not quite so overwhleming.

And if all that were not enough, it would not be difficult to put a cooldown on switching modes (or even making Counter mode reduce enemy missile lock times a la MW4.)

Not really. Yes it would slightly reduce the RoF of the ECM mech, but let's go over a few scenarios (every mech has streaks).

ECM vs ECM:
Streaks pretty much won't work unless one person is dumb enough to leave his counter on for an extended period, though with this change to being "off" instead of counter, turning it "off" is only inviting his own destruction because the other party will just be able to fire at him without "off" being able to retaliate. 3L v 3L fights are now medium laser brawls.

ECM vs Non-ECM:
ECM mech runs in on. Uses macro to turn off while he has his sights set on enemy, gets lock, fires and immediately turns it back on (by nature of the macro). Enemies lock is immediately cancelled, ECM mech disables ECM, repeats. Slightly less DPS overall, but still retains streak exclusivity.

For instance, left click macro is:
Fire streaks (or entire alpha really)
ECM toggle

The fight would then be:
1. Click (hits with lasers and disables ECM)
2. Lock on (both sides)
3. Double click (streaks and lasers fire, ECM enables blocking enemy lock, immediately turns it off going to step 2 and repeat steps 2 and 3 until dead).

And if at any point you need to turn away from your target or he jumps out of line of sight, flip it on and you don't ever have to worry.

This change wouldn't effect anything at all except make it take slightly more effort than now to retain streak exclusivity over a non-ecm equipped opponent.


Hell, you can use this method in current 3l vs 3l combat until the enemy 3L turns on counter and stays there.

Edited by hammerreborn, 28 February 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[EmeraldSongbird]

I still don't understand why it wouldn't disrupt the locking ability of your teammates while under ECM as well. I just don't find it logical by any means.

[DocBach]

I've made tons of suggestions about electronic warfare before, that usually read out like essays, so here's one that's not as long:

Buffing Beagle Active Probe to where it can see anything in a radius around it, including 'Mechs behind mountains or buildings normal sensor cannot see;

moving any sort of missile defeat from ECM to a third Ghost target mode, which is countered by Beagle Active Probe. Ghost Target mode increases the time to lock on to an ECM protected 'Mech, but does not make locks impossible. It is a countermeasure, not a denial system.

ECM hides enemy movement from Beagle; Beagle denies ECM's disruption of missile locks.

That way we get 1.5 ton pieces of equipment that can work to have an advantage over each other, and defeat each other depending on player use.

If PPC's jam out ECM, PPC's also jam out Beagle.

I also believe the complete information denial over entire grid squares is too much, and allowing targets in sensor range to be targeted, but not identified or provided damage/loadout information would go a long ways to qualm complaints about ECM; ECM's third mode would still provide protection against missiles, but also be counter-able by a similarly expensive 1.5 ton piece of equipment, instead of a 7 ton PPC.

[Khanahar]

hammerreborn, on 28 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Not really. Yes it would slightly reduce the RoF of the ECM mech, but let's go over a few scenarios (every mech has streaks).

ECM vs ECM:
Streaks pretty much won't work unless one person is dumb enough to leave his counter on for an extended period, though with this change to being "off" instead of counter, turning it "off" is only inviting his own destruction because the other party will just be able to fire at him without "off" being able to retaliate. 3L v 3L fights are now medium laser brawls.

ECM vs Non-ECM:
ECM mech runs in on. Uses macro to turn off while he has his sights set on enemy, gets lock, fires and immediately turns it back on (by nature of the macro). Enemies lock is immediately cancelled, ECM mech disables ECM, repeats. Slightly less DPS overall, but still retains streak exclusivity.

For instance, left click macro is:
Fire streaks (or entire alpha really)
ECM toggle

The fight would then be:
1. Click (hits with lasers and disables ECM)
2. Lock on (both sides)
3. Double click (streaks and lasers fire, ECM enables blocking enemy lock, immediately turns it off going to step 2 and repeat steps 2 and 3 until dead).

And if at any point you need to turn away from your target or he jumps out of line of sight, flip it on and you don't ever have to worry.

This change wouldn't effect anything at all except make it take slightly more effort than now to retain streak exclusivity over a non-ecm equipped opponent.


Hell, you can use this method in current 3l vs 3l combat until the enemy 3L turns on counter and stays there.

Fair enough. I guess if you had a macro that did it instantly, some significant portion of the non-ECM 'mechs shots wouldn't lock in time. However, I kinda hope the lower RoF would be enough... though it's hard to say without testing. Remember, as soon as streaks are lined up with other light-killing weapons in terms of efficiency, Jenners have a fair shake against Ravens.

Maybe we should just make streaks need a lock for every shot, and make ECM slow drastically the lock-on time instead of cancelling it entirely. Sounds like a question for a Beta test!

[One Medic Army]

I like this, just because it would discourage people from playing D-DC atlases with 3x ALRM15s, TAG, and a single ML for self defense...