169 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

There has been much discussion about how Clan Tech - while not available should be balanced.
...the MWO settings could be settled in the Chaos March an we won't see any claner soon.
However there is at first no real possibility to force players to use honor rules.
(Single Combat - use the absolute minimum that is necessary for victory)
...
But you can force them by their "income".

When you use a DireWolf to smash a lance of UrbanMechs you have achieved victory at all... but from the view of honor your actions are disappointing

First you need something that gives every Mech a linear value ...something similar like Combat Value because it is a linear value. Costs could work to -> but the XL-Fusion mess everything up.

So lets say the DireWolf cost 1000 points and the 4 destroyed Mechs have a value of 500
So every gain the DireWolf will get at the end is halved.

To make it worse when you ignore zell and shoot with multiple clan mechs at a single enemy every points you gain is modified to. A Atlas with 750 points for example is worth only 250 when you shoot with 3 Clan Mechs at the same time.

The result may be that clan pilots are more concerned about there gain... then team play (because every Comrade you assist will result in less points for you)
Wait till your comrade is destroyed and then attack afterwards will give you the points the target is worth reduced by the damage your comrade made
for example the Atlas is only 670 points - but isn't it better to get 670 points rather then 375 points while assisting?

What is your opinion... when there are other topics with similar content i beg pardon

[DDM PLAGUE]

Let me guess you prefer IS tech.
Its am interesting Idea, But why should a Clan pilot be punished for team play.

[Karl Streiger]

Because Team Play it is not the way of the Clans.
TeamPlay is the way of the IS

[Stormwolf]

I have a far easier method, just track down dishonorable players and break their legs with baseball bats and crowbars.

[Karl Streiger]

That means i have to visit all Clan Wolf players????

Forgot two things:
the modifer could be positve too
Killing a Atlas with a Ice Ferret or similar should give you a bonus up to x 2.0 - while is have everytime only x1
You can modify your base value by swaping out weapons...a Dire Wolf with 4 ER-Large Laser only should have the same costs as a normal atlas
We need maintenance costs too - not only repair and ammunition

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 May 2012 - 03:50 AM.

[Egomane]

DDM PLAGUE, on 29 May 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

But why should a Clan pilot be punished for team play.

Please read this page: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

I'll give you the most important part of it right here: The practice of engaging opponents in single combat

It is not the way of the clans to fight as a team. Each warrior strives for his own honor first, to maybe achieve the right to add his genes into the pool for future warriors.

[Stormwolf]

I wrote a article on the Clan mindset here:

http://mwomercs.com/...a-clan-warrior/

Unfortunately it is lost on many munchkins.

[EvereadyGold]

problem i see with this: IS mercs getting their hands on clan tech turns this into a CF

[CaveMan]

Karl Streiger, on 29 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

What is your opinion... when there are other topics with similar content i beg pardon

The main problem I see here is your system is really vulnerable to griefers. If somebody jumps into a match and starts shooting all their teammates' targets just to keep other people from gaining honor and p!ss them off there's nothing the victims can do.

You can't force people to roleplay. All you can do is either restrict access to the Clans to people who would roleplay in the first place (which would cause all kinds of crying in the forums) or nerf Clan equipment so it's not unbalanced (which would cause all kinds of crying in the forums).

[Karl Streiger]

CaveMan, on 29 May 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

The main problem I see here is your system is really vulnerable to griefers. If somebody jumps into a match and starts shooting all their teammates' targets just to keep other people from gaining honor and p!ss them off there's nothing the victims can do.

Well you describing a kind of troll...its the same way as jumping into a game and shooting at team mates... it will happen but those players could be marked and finally baned ...no system is perfect because
it were humans that inviteted the system and because humans do everything to test the limits of this systems

[CaveMan]

Maybe rather than punishing people for not sticking to honor, it's better to reward them for being honorable. Say, have a points multiplier that is exponentially higher when you stick to strict honor rules and choose a difficult target.

And as part of that, top-tier Clan equipment should be super-expensive, so if you want the best gear you *have* to be super-honorable.

Edited by CaveMan, 29 May 2012 - 04:49 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

How would a game actually be able to enforce punishing or rewarding behaviour like that ... sounds exploitable and hardly worth the effort to me.

[CaveMan]

Asmudius Heng, on 29 May 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

How would a game actually be able to enforce punishing or rewarding behaviour like that ... sounds exploitable and hardly worth the effort to me.

The actual rules of Zellbrigen would be pretty easy to implement in-game, I think. Basically each player has an "honor level" for the match which would be a percentage, starting at 100% and falling off by some percentage for every dishonorable act. The closer your honor is to 100%, the more bonus cash/points/whatever you get after the match.

1) "Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy" Well this one is easy enough. First enemy that you deal damage to is flagged as your primary target. That flag expires if the target retreats from the field, or you lose contact with it for X amount of time (say, at least one minute). Anyone else who shoots at that enemy while flagged as "yours" is considered to be violating honor. The HUD could show a line over the target saying "targeted by Joe McWarrior" to alert others of its status.

1a) Someone else attacking your target is also an affront to your honor, but it has less of an effect than you attacking someone else's target. Also, if an enemy unit shoots at you, you are cleared to engage that unit whether someone else has engaged it or not.

2) "Intentionally moving out of line-of-sight to the target is prohibited" You would have to take a liberal interpretation of this one, but basically your "claim" on the target would expire after you lose contact for a while, as above. If someone else picks up the target later, you get partial credit for damaging it, but you can't re-engage while they're fighting that 'Mech without losing honor.

3) "Moving out of weapon range is prohibited" Same as above. Move out of targeting range or the target retreats and you don't or can't pursue, and you lose your claim on that target.

4) Firing at shut down 'Mechs. This one should be pretty easy. The amount of damage you deal to a 'Mech while it's shut down negatively affects your honor.

The hard part would be implementing the rules in a way that players can't easily exploit them to get behavior that's not intended.

[Vodkavaiator]

Another difficulty involved is that the punishment/reward for not following the rules of Zellbrigen needs to be quite thought out.

My concern is that unless we are talking about some heavy punishment for violating said rules, most players will still be playing to win.

For example:
IS vs Clan, Clan team breaks Zellbrigen, ganging up on the IS mechs securing an easy win. They only receive 25% of their gained experience and C-Bills, however they still won, incurred relatively low casualties and so are generally fine with the whole situation.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 29 May 2012 - 05:24 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

CaveMan, on 29 May 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

The hard part would be implementing the rules in a way that players can't easily exploit them to get behavior that's not intended.

Exactly my point.

From the behaviour of the clanner and his target ... and then if you accidentally break the rules and get punished for it, or someone griefs you about it .... just opens up a can of worms IMO

I do not know how clans will be put into this game but I just think it will be so full of ways to be abused that it might turn people off and that is not good for the game overall.

An interesting thought experiment at the very least though

[Karl Streiger]

CaveMan, on 29 May 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

The actual rules of Zellbrigen would be pretty easy to implement in-game, I think. Basically each player has an "honor level" for the match which would be a percentage, starting at 100% and falling off by some percentage for every dishonorable act.

Maybe you should start with 125% or similar - so you try harder to keep your honor

Asmudius Heng, on 29 May 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

and then if you accidentally break the rules

You are clan YOU CAN'T ACCIDENTALLY break the rules... even if you do it doesn't matter ask the Widowmakers

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 May 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[William Petersen]

The trouble with this whole idea is the freedom to change between factions. I've read (God-knows-where) that we're going to be at liberty to change our faction whenever we please, only losing the loyalty points accrued with the faction from which we are defecting.

They simply *have* to implement some very harsh restrictions going from IS to Clan and from Clan to IS, or we'll see players hopping to clan, grinding up some fancy tech, then going back to IS so they don't have to deal with honor rules.

It's a very troublesome problem. =-/

[Sesambrot]

The problem here is that all you're doing is to make the metagame less fun for clan-players as you make them grind much longer, but they'll still be able to dominate IS-players in combat. So all you're doing is to slow them down in their progress, you actually don't prevent them from fighting "dishonorably".
My point is that it's pretty much futile to try and balance actual gameplay through a metagame. You may be able to discourage certain behaviour, but you won't be able to prevent it.
You could of course go to extremes and halt their progress alltogether if they don't play by the "rules", but that would be gamebreaking, and no gamedev in his right mind would ever consider that.

Edited by Sesambrot, 29 May 2012 - 05:30 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

They won't be able to dominate IS-Players when sticking to Honor Rules 1...
The system may discourage team play for clans...but when the invasion moves on they can switch to less strict rules - allowing them to work together.
However the result maybe that only the most experienced players will run successful a clan carrier ...but shouldn't clan players be the death incarnate?

[CaveMan]

Asmudius Heng, on 29 May 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

From the behaviour of the clanner and his target ... and then if you accidentally break the rules and get punished for it, or someone griefs you about it

This is why I suggested having some text pop up over the target on the HUD to tell you that a target is already taken. Aside from that, the severity of the penalty has to be based on the severity of the infraction. In other words, I find it hard to believe that you could "accidentally" lob 300 LRMs into a shut down 'Mech without noticing. So accidentally doing a few damage to an enemy shouldn't cost you a bunch of honor, but if you totally obliterate a target that isn't valid, that's really dishonorable. So, say each point of damage you do to an invalid target counts some tiny percentage against you. Do a lot of damage, and it adds up. Do a little bit, and you'll barely notice.