169 replies to this topic

[Rikogu]

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned star size. Wouldn't this mean if IS brings sixteen mechs, clan would be limited to ten mechs?

Edited by Rikogu, 29 May 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[RickDiasPK]

I want to point out that reducing profit for winning with clan tech probably won't help. The player is still winning (chief concern) and still profiting. It may be less profit, but who cares? They got to feel totally awesome in their super-tech Mech and still got some profit.

Any balancing around the clans would need to either be forced by the system (as in the player must comply, no two ways about it) or use positive reinforcement for following clan honor. Reduced incentives won't work unless the reduction is so far the reward becomes zero or even negative, at which point you have defeated the purpose of the match to begin with.

[shortpainter]

Some of you fine gentlemen have already given some excellent ideas on adding clan culture to the battlefield. However, it has been argued that those ideas are open for abuse, cheating, and can spark flame wars. I have a few suggestions. One way to prevent such bad behavior is to only allow the most experienced players to become clanners in the first place. After you unlock most of the items, modules, gain enough money and so on, you are then able to switch to a clan faction, start one, or switch your group into a clan if the players are of high enough level. Your game starts over, you have more responsibility as a player and all kinds of new rules and restrictions will placed on you. But you get to kick all kinds of @$$ on the battle field. You may not deal with money at all, honor will be your currency and nothing else. You will always be outnumbered and it will be a hell of good time.

Calling out a target for the honor of killing it all by yourself can be as easy as placing an icon above an enemy mech. That way, everybody knows the target has been called, everybody else loses honor points if they shoot at it, and the experience goes double to the player who claimed it. Of course, lots of balancing will need to be done and only play testing will find the loop holes. Still, I think the Clan's warrior culture is totally possible.

[Morgan Kerensky]

Rikogu, on 29 May 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned star size. Wouldn't this mean if IS brings sixteen mechs, clan would be limited to ten mechs?

I believe so.

Which would be completely fair, given the technology differences.

[OfTheDark]

The problem I see is what happens when your opponent (IS or another more 'dishonourable' Clan) breaks Zell? You should not be bound any more but what would that do to your Honour rating (or rewards) if your opponent breaks it first?

Have there been any details on Clan communities yet? One thing I've thought of is that if the players run Clans themselves they could police themselves, more or less. If you were in Clan that follows Zell strictly they could force you to stick with it better or be kicked out. If the Clan you're in is more lax it would be less of a problem and you could follow it as such. You might lose out on the bonuses some people have mentioned but those could theoretically be made up by the Clan you've joined. Dunno...just an idea I've had...

[Gremlich Johns]

Nobody can force Clan-oriented players to play as YOU see fit. A team playing Clan has to enforce it themselves with no expectation that anybody else will observe the same conventions. ESPECIALLY a dezgra IS team which is the typical flavor out there. There is no amount of coding that the devs are going to provide that will do this based on every Clan's version of Zell.

As IS and pseudo-Clan opponents disrespect the Clan Honor morays of a team actually trying to portray the best of the Clans, expect to get owned, Painfully. Whining about "But the clans have to behave this way" will not do anything but hasten your demise.

Anybody here who thinks they know the Clans had best have read up on every bit of the fiction and details in Canon before suggesting "How to". Especially if you are not planning on playing on a Clan team.

Only the teams full of sincere "Clansmen" can effect what the IS whingers want but do not want. A Clansman will not sit by, nor will his teammates, while dezgra shoot at him whilst engaged in what he thought honourable combat.

Rikogu, on 29 May 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned star size. Wouldn't this mean if IS brings sixteen mechs, clan would be limited to ten mechs?

this topic has been broached before, use the search function.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 29 May 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Ferrox]

I can guarantee that one thing will happen.

At first Clans fight according to Zellbrigen.

Then two IS gang up on one clan mech, resulting in a normal " Team Deathmatch".

Zellbrigen can be brocken by every side, including the IS.

[Karl Streiger]

The system shouldn't be introduced to punish clan players. It should only be more challenging to be a Clan Warrior.
Every system can be abused...so... this reason is no valid explanation why not to use something similar

You want to be clan so you shouldn't have a problem to start on a SL chassis and maybe together with your code of honor new technology becomes unlocked...

[Draelren]

I see a lot of discussion and arguments for "you should be rewarded for fighting with the clan honor system" and yet these same people are also saying that you shouldn't be punished for NOT fighting with zellbrigen in mind.

What is the real difference? In the end it is the exact same either way. Look at it this way:

WITHOUT punishment, but WITH rewards for zellbrigen:
Dishonorable combat will net you 1000 exp with no drawbacks.
Honorable combat will net you 1500 exp with the bonus for fighting with zellbrigen.

WITH punishment for NOT using zellbrigen:
Dishonorable combat will net you 1500 exp - 1/3rd experience = 1000 exp
Honorable combat will net you the full 1500 exp.

In the end as long as the numbers are there, it boils down to the same exact thing. Unless I am COMPLETELY missing what everyone is arguing over.

I am one of those clanners that insists on zellbrigen. I still use it when I play MW4 on multiplayer. It normally gets me killed 2x more than everyone else. But do I care? No. Because I am sticking with what I believe a clanner should be, and if I die due to 10 people hitting me at once? It was meant to be.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

or we could just fix clan tech so it isn't so bloody broken...but why do that, you all want your OP weapons and an exclusive club,how silly.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 31 May 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[Draelren]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 31 May 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

or we could just fix clan tech so it isn't so bloody broken...but why do that, you all want your OP weapons and an exclusive club,how silly.

That isn't a fix. That is changing what the storyline is completely. The IS had battered itself to a pulp, and is now recuperating. The clans had Star League level tech, and then spent many years advancing that technology before they invaded. It is SUPPOSED to be a 1-3 Clan-IS ratio, and they still win. Only after the initial invasion does the IS start to catch back up in tactics, outsmarting them, and starting to catch back up in the level of tech.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Draelren, on 31 May 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

That isn't a fix. That is changing what the storyline is completely. The IS had battered itself to a pulp, and is now recuperating. The clans had Star League level tech, and then spent many years advancing that technology before they invaded. It is SUPPOSED to be a 1-3 Clan-IS ratio, and they still win. Only after the initial invasion does the IS start to catch back up in tactics, outsmarting them, and starting to catch back up in the level of tech.

yes that is a fix, you really haven't looked at the War of 3039 have you? you know, the fight between the FedSuns and the Combine, where the Combine was given star league era mechs and technology (a limited amount yes) in exchange for the sovereignty of the FRR? it completely changed the battlefield in the story, the new mechs along with a calculated risk on the part of the Coordinator, stopped the FedSuns in their tracks. So yeah, balancing clan tech is a fix, and can be worked into the story.

Also, as far as I know; nowhere - nowhere- does it ever say in lore, in scenario briefings, in video games that there is any kind of 'ratio' or 'correct ratio' of IS to Clan forces.

[Smoke Banshee]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 31 May 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Also, as far as I know; nowhere - nowhere- does it ever say in lore, in scenario briefings, in video games that there is any kind of 'ratio' or 'correct ratio' of IS to Clan forces.

Actually in a few of the rulebooks there was a proper ratio given, it is eight 3025 mechs to 5 clan mechs, and something like 5.5 ( I've forgotten the proper ratio) star league mechs to 5 clanners.

[Stormwolf]

Smoke Banshee, on 31 May 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Actually in a few of the rulebooks there was a proper ratio given, it is eight 3025 mechs to 5 clan mechs, and something like 5.5 ( I've forgotten the proper ratio) star league mechs to 5 clanners.

My old gaming group had this homebrew rule set, the IS side could field additional tonnage for each Clan weight class, it was something like this IIRC.

Light: +10 tons
Medium: +20 tons
Heavy: +30 tons
Assault: +35 tons? (can't remember)

So, if I have 2 Summoners (70 * 2 = 140) then the IS side gets a bonus of (30 * 2 = 60), the IS side got to field 200 tons total.
It was a crude system, the IS players usually had veteran level pilot ratings (3/4 with a few 2/3 mixed in).

Edited by Stormwolf, 31 May 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Kael Tropheus]

I didnt read the whole thread but it would be fairly easy to force honor fighting and clan rules.
-Honor based economy
As the example in the OPs first post says have part of it based on weight and skill level. You must actually take on an opponent that is worth a challenge. I would say go farther.

-Dire Wolf example you will not get any honor points for killing anything lighter than a heavy mech and the honor goes up as the weight of the opponent goes up. A Storm Crow on the other hand can kill any weight class of mech since it is right in the middle, but a light mech obviously gives much less honor than the Storm Crow taking out an Atlas which would give far more honor than the previously mentioned Dire Wolf would get. This is an easy math equation so would not be hard to implement.

-Furthermore involve exp. levels i- the more experienced pilot the clanner takes out, make a multiplier to the previous weight class honor award, or simply have a set bonus since a Dire Wolf shooting up an Urbanmech wouldnt give any exp, however if it was piloted by a max exp pilot, you at least get a decent bonus.

As for following rules: If you hit more than one enemy mech thus breaking Zell, your honor income for the round is reduced to 1/4th of what you would have gotten.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Smoke Banshee, on 31 May 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Actually in a few of the rulebooks there was a proper ratio given, it is eight 3025 mechs to 5 clan mechs, and something like 5.5 ( I've forgotten the proper ratio) star league mechs to 5 clanners.

going off of how everyone has their idea or house rule to fix the issue; it is a problem
as for the ratio? that sounds just as bad as everyone's house rules,its signs of a flawed system.

Another thing, 8 3025 mechs to 5 clan? what a joke! doesnt matter the weight class, 3/4 is 3/4.
doesnt even take into account any sort of battlevalue either!?

finally, I cannot stress enough. Players play to win. Anything that gets in their way to victory will be ignored. I have a friend who played SJ's back in the MW4 league. They didn't really care for zell if it meant they would lose, they also practiced normal team coordination tactics. See thing is, supposed clan players want zell, but I haven't heard one peep as to how you're going to tactically apply it on the battlefield to win, why? because its not a strategy, in fact, it hampers strategic planning.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 01 June 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Karl Streiger, on 29 May 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

You want to be clan so you shouldn't have a problem to start on a SL chassis and maybe together with your code of honor new technology becomes unlocked...

Obviously you do not know what the Clans possess at the beginning of the Invasion, and possibly, you know little to nothing about the BT Milieu/universe. One of the few clans to hold predominately SL era chassis are the Blood Spirits, who will NOT make an appearance in MWO anytime soon, if at all. When the Clans arrive, they can be expected to field, in addition to Clan tech, SL-era tech with advanced weaponry, due to it being in their inventories since the Exodus, Now, how old does that make THEIR SL-era tech? Take your time.

Truely Clan-oriented players will attempt Zellbrigen. However, just believe that if the offer has been accepted ("Well bid and done!"), once the covenant is broken, you will die. And quickly.

It is my belief that it will be incumbent upon the IS Mechwarriror to uphold the Honor of Zellbrigen - IF you face proper Clan-oriented players. If it is a sham, then the opponents you face might as well just be ordinary mechwarriors from the IS.

[Jess Hazen]

what is this? op does not make any sense. zellbrigen will not be used on any but the most worthy and most respected innersphere adversaries, those who agree to the terms of our honour code... for the vast majority of the innersphere has not and will not respect zellbrigen since they have to resort to underhanded methods in order to acchieve victory. we are clan we are superior in every way.

[Joanna Conners]

Jess Hazen, on 03 June 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

what is this? op does not make any sense. zellbrigen will not be used on any but the most worthy and most respected innersphere adversaries, those who agree to the terms of our honour code... for the vast majority of the innersphere has not and will not respect zellbrigen since they have to resort to underhanded methods in order to acchieve victory. we are clan we are superior in every way.

Yep. Superiority dictates only being honorable when it suits you.

[Jess Hazen]

Demona, on 03 June 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Yep. Superiority dictates only being honorable when it suits you.

ok so cut the crap you're not honourable because you're doing everything it takes to win and frankly to even stand a chance that is what you need to do. there is no way for you to survive what our zellbrigen code dictates BECAUSE we are clan warriors we are superior to your ragged band in every way.

Edited by Jess Hazen, 03 June 2012 - 01:24 PM.