169 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

Jess Hazen, on 03 June 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

ok so cut the crap you're not honourable because you're doing everything it takes to win and frankly to even stand a chance that is what you need to do. there is no way for you to survive what our zellbrigen code dictates BECAUSE we are clan warriors we are superior to your ragged band in every way.

Do what I did and "ignore" her.

[Groundstain]

Nice idea but something I can not subscribe to. If by chance someone smaller is shooting at me it is my job to step on him or her and move on with my life. I do have a moral code that I live by but truthfully honor will only get in the way of victory. This is a future war not a "civil" war.

[Jess Hazen]

Groundstain, on 03 June 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Nice idea but something I can not subscribe to. If by chance someone smaller is shooting at me it is my job to step on him or her and move on with my life. I do have a moral code that I live by but truthfully honor will only get in the way of victory. This is a future war not a "civil" war.

exactly thats why zellbrigen is a non-issue here. i can foresee clans practicing it let the warrior fight their fight if they are already engaged, its an insult to help them in this case. this will happen at least for organized meta game engagements, if its random battles like WoT and you're scored and given exp and c-bills based on team play then it just wont happen.

Edited by Jess Hazen, 03 June 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[Joanna Conners]

Jess Hazen, on 03 June 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

ok so cut the crap you're not honourable because you're doing everything it takes to win and frankly to even stand a chance that is what you need to do. there is no way for you to survive what our zellbrigen code dictates BECAUSE we are clan warriors we are superior to your ragged band in every way.

Someone is overly sensitive. You should do what Johns did and ignore me. I'd prefer that option if you're not going to be mature.

I winked in my initial comment. It was a joke. Calm down.

[Jess Hazen]

i am calm. and wow you've entraped me, you've delighted me with your whitty sarchasim and now i'm the immature one for responding, how very very rich.

oh and for the future you should know that sarchasim does not convey well through text. i suggest you use it up on your pets and not post it on the forums unless your just looking to be an aggrivation.

Edited by Jess Hazen, 03 June 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[Joanna Conners]

Jess Hazen, on 03 June 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

i am calm. and wow you've entraped me, you've delighted me with your whitty sarchasim and now i'm the immature one for responding, how very very rich.

oh and for the future you should know that sarchasim does not convey well through text. i suggest you use it up on your pets and not post it on the forums unless your just looking to be an aggrivation.

Wow.

[Gendou]

Demona, on 03 June 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Wow.

Since he is clearly a Falcon, I am forced to assume he failed his Enhanced Imaging mental stability roll.

[WiCkEd]

12is vs 12 clan is ridiculous imbalance. I wonder they don't cap it at 12is(3 lances) vs 10clan(2 stars). I'm cool with those odds. One of the reasons the tech was supposed to balance was because the clanners were always bidding to use the least amount of resources possible to get the job done. This often resulted in a very large numerical superiority in favor of the IS who were gimped technologically. Claiming targets isn't that difficult of a system to implement as they already have that sort of tracking in some of the other games you might have played before I.E. WoW. Let whoever is gonna cry about it, cry about it.

[Colorfinger]

They could program it so that the clan player has to override his targeting computer in order violate honor. In other words, Clan Mech A targets IS Mech A and Clan Mech B comes on the scene. Clan Mech B will see the Mech 'flagged' but tries to fire anyway. When he pulls the trigger he is prompted that firing on this mech will cause dishonor and outline the punishment. If they elect to engage anyway, they take the honor hit. As long as they continue firing on that Mech, they continue to lose honor. If they go to engage another flagged Mech, they are warned again. The reason for the warning again is that it slows down the process for poaching others mechs and provides a level of security to prevent 'accidental' dishonor. It also takes it form simply a Meta honor system and makes it part of the game.

I know some will complain that they just want to use clan mechs and don't want to follow the honor system, why should the game ruin their fun? Simple, the honor system is part of being in the clans. The two should go hand in hand. If I want to relive my days in Clan Wolf, I will have to follow the rules. That is part of being a warden. If you don't want to play that way, then you want to play IS.

In addition, this kind of system gives IS some level of success in fights vs Clans, so they can actually go full out PVP with the clans instead of starting it as PVE, which I suspect is the easiest way to introduce clans and PVE.

[Jess Hazen]

WiCkEd, on 03 June 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

12is vs 12 clan is ridiculous imbalance. I wonder they don't cap it at 12is(3 lances) vs 10clan(2 stars). I'm cool with those odds. One of the reasons the tech was supposed to balance was because the clanners were always bidding to use the least amount of resources possible to get the job done. This often resulted in a very large numerical superiority in favor of the IS who were gimped technologically. Claiming targets isn't that difficult of a system to implement as they already have that sort of tracking in some of the other games you might have played before I.E. WoW. Let whoever is gonna cry about it, cry about it.

a little bit off topic but a great idea, a few days ago i suggested the same idea to have an IS company be matched against a clan binary. here

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Jess Hazen, on 04 June 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

a little bit off topic but a great idea, a few days ago i suggested the same idea to have an IS company be matched against a clan binary. here

the numerical disparity does not work with zell for one very specific reason; what are the leftover 2 IS pilots supposed to do if everyone has squared off for a duel? do they just sit there and wait their turn? If they help out, then zell is broken and the clans get to act however they want.

so no, the company vs binary doesn't work, it's setting the IS up to fail.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Karl Streiger, on 29 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

There has been much discussion about how Clan Tech - while not available should be balanced.
...the MWO settings could be settled in the Chaos March an we won't see any claner soon.
However there is at first no real possibility to force players to use honor rules.
(Single Combat - use the absolute minimum that is necessary for victory)
...
But you can force them by their "income".

When you use a DireWolf to smash a lance of UrbanMechs you have achieved victory at all... but from the view of honor your actions are disappointing

First you need something that gives every Mech a linear value ...something similar like Combat Value because it is a linear value. Costs could work to -> but the XL-Fusion mess everything up.

So lets say the DireWolf cost 1000 points and the 4 destroyed Mechs have a value of 500
So every gain the DireWolf will get at the end is halved.

To make it worse when you ignore zell and shoot with multiple clan mechs at a single enemy every points you gain is modified to. A Atlas with 750 points for example is worth only 250 when you shoot with 3 Clan Mechs at the same time.

The result may be that clan pilots are more concerned about there gain... then team play (because every Comrade you assist will result in less points for you)
Wait till your comrade is destroyed and then attack afterwards will give you the points the target is worth reduced by the damage your comrade made
for example the Atlas is only 670 points - but isn't it better to get 670 points rather then 375 points while assisting?

What is your opinion... when there are other topics with similar content i beg pardon

I like the tought put into this but I would just like to say that if you remember the Zell correctly, as soon as one side or the other breaks the honor code and has multiple mechs attacking a single target it's considered the entry into Grand Melee which is a free for all battle should the offended party choose to accept it.

Really the only way to make this stick is to have closely monitored RP Servers with a reporting system for players who do nothing but grief.

[Tambu]

CaveMan, on 29 May 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

The main problem I see here is your system is really vulnerable to griefers. If somebody jumps into a match and starts shooting all their teammates' targets just to keep other people from gaining honor and p!ss them off there's nothing the victims can do.

Trial of Grievance

[Kartr]

Buddahcjcc, on 04 June 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

I keep seeing theres no salvaging
Anyone hear different? Id REALLY like to see where they said there isnt cause imo thats straight dumb in a MW title

How would that work in a PvP game where destroyed 'Mechs aren't left on the field for the other side to salvage? Plus even if you could salvage Clan tech you can't use it on your BattleMech. Weapons designed for OmniMechs don't work on BattleMechs except in very very very very rare cases when very very very very rich/powerful people or friends of had the best techs with the best equipment create work arounds. IS players shouldn't get salvaged Clan gear for that reason alone.

From a game play stand point if you allow IS players to mount captured Clan tech then you remove any chance of creating an even balance. Best way to create balance is to only allow Clanners access to Clan tech and then use information warfare, modules, numbers (10v12) and programming that encourages/forces Clan players to not use teamwork (Clan society discourages teamwork).

My ideas:

• Only allow players to use Clan BattleMechs at first, Clan OmniMechs were front line units only and its unlikely they had enough to outfit all the potential Clan players, so make Clan players use second line 'Mechs.
  
• When a second Clanner hits an IS 'Mech it reduces the xp and credits gained for both pilots by half, every Clanner who hits that same 'Mech afterwords reduces the xp and credits by half again (credits/xp=damage/(2^(x-1)) where x is the number of 'Mechs attacking the target). If the target killed one of the Clan 'Mechs attacking it then x would be reduced by 1, if a Clan 'Mech gets killed by an enemy 'Mech other than the target x is not reduced by one. This enforces the Clans lack of teamwork and individual combat.
  
• Don't allow the Clans access to most of the Information Warfare assets. Clans don't get drone surveillance, satellite sweeps, arty/air strikes, etc.
  
• 10v12 matches, Star vs Company in the canon fashion.
  
• etc.

These allow the game to remain fairly faithful to the lore and the nature of the Clans and yet allow the IS a fighting chance without nerfing Clan tech. BTW I am an IS player only, you'll never see me fighting for that military dictatorship ruled by violent slave owning barbarians (not RP, just fact).

[Artifice]

1. 10 vs 12. Maybe 5 vs 8.
2. Honor points instead of C-Bills. Non transferable.
3. Separate profile for Clan characters. Non transferable.

These are the only 'forced' rules the devs should expect everyone to accept.

Clan 'Mechs are hardcore, so they have fewer numbers Vs. Inner Sphere barbarians. Clans buy stuff with honor points and none of the Clan stuff can end up on the IS market. People choose whether to play their Clan or IS personality, that is all. As to how the honor system works, I'm sure they'll find a way - Don't ever forget that this game is being made by people with inside knowledge of the original creation process of Battletech.

Any of this talk of forcing in Zellbringen is for the cows. I re-read the Jade Phoenix Saga recently and while dishonorable tactics are frowned upon, they are hardly taboo. Besides, even if Clanners did use strict rules, why on earth would the Inners respect it? Clan on Clan violence you say - take it to the Circle of Equals!

Edited by Artifice, 04 June 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Kartr]

Artifice, on 04 June 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

1. 10 vs 12. Maybe 5 vs 8.
2. Honor points instead of C-Bills. Non transferable.
3. Separate profile for Clan characters. Non transferable.

These are the only 'forced' rules the devs should expect everyone to accept.

10v12 isn't enough to counter the Clan tech superiority and 5v8 is also probably not enough. There needs to be something else in addition to that to help level the playing field.

Honor points would perform the exact same function as C-Bills and only makes things more confusing and complicated so no point in having them, just use C-Bills. After all IS pilots also didn't usually own their own 'Mechs and didn't ever upgrade them unless they actually did own it.

Not sure what you mean by a separate profile, I should be able to log onto my Kartr profile and play either my IS pilot or my Clan pilot. There's no point in making people log out of one account and log into another, its actually detrimental because that means there are fewer profile names, more profiles to store, etc. Just have two pilots, one IS and one Clan and the IS pilot never gets access to the Clan pilots gear and vice versa.

Artifice, on 04 June 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Clan 'Mechs are hardcore, so they have fewer numbers Vs. Inner Sphere barbarians. Clans buy stuff with honor points and none of the Clan stuff can end up on the IS market. People choose whether to play their Clan or IS personality, that is all. As to how the honor system works, I'm sure they'll find a way - Don't ever forget that this game is being made by people with inside knowledge of the original creation process of Battletech.

Any of this talk of forcing in Zellbringen is for the cows. I re-read the Jade Phoenix Saga recently and while dishonorable tactics are frowned upon, they are hardly taboo. Besides, even if Clanners did use strict rules, why on earth would the Inners respect it? Clan on Clan violence you say - take it to the Circle of Equals!

Numbers alone aren't enough and unless you have hard coded rules that players can't break or you make the "honor" system draconian enough, players will ignore them to gain the tactical advantage and win. In order to balance things out you need to actually give the IS advantages and enforce the Clan lack of teamwork.

The thing is Clanners may not have to follow Zellbrigen or any of the other rules of "honor," however they've been raised with them and with a certain mindset that makes such things second nature and they will fall back on them unconsciously. Also you have the fact that Clan pilots are glory hounds who are generally more interested in doing what glorifies them rather than in working as a team. So its not so much enforcing players to follow Zell, its forcing them to play the way Clanners think rather than how gamers think. Because lets face it gamers are probably the furthest thing from Clanners.

[Skylarr]

Kartr, on 04 June 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

10v12 isn't enough to counter the Clan tech superiority and 5v8 is also probably not enough.

By the time the Clans hit almost all Inner Sphere Mechs in the game will the new Tech. So will the IS need a 10v12 ratio or will 12v12 be just fine?

Quote

After all IS pilots also didn't usually own their own 'Mechs and didn't ever upgrade them unless they actually did own it.

Not true I would say about 95% of all Mechs are owner by the Mech warrior. During the *** the Houses upgraded Mechs owned by the Mechwarriors. After the Invasion that number should have changed a little bit. Maybe down to as low as 80%. Later in history that nuber may have changed even more.

Quote

The thing is Clanners may not have to follow Zellbrigen or any of the other rules of "honor," however they've been raised with them and with a certain mindset that makes such things second nature and they will fall back on them unconsciously. Also you have the fact that Clan pilots are glory hounds who are generally more interested in doing what glorifies them rather than in working as a team. So its not so much enforcing players to follow Zell, its forcing them to play the way Clanners think rather than how gamers think. Because lets face it gamers are probably the furthest thing from Clanners.

You are right. The Clans will not be forced to follow Zellbringing. Nor should they. I want to see PGI concentrate on getting Mechs into the game.

You will see Zellbringing on the 1v1 level. I am hoping to see it on the 4v4 and the 12v12 level matches from Clan units that join the Match making as a single group.

[LordDeathStrike]

first off: clan mechs can only fire at mechs that have hit them with weapons fire (zell rule of engagement)
second: mechs of lower battle value then the clan mech, are worth 0 points to dmg or kill, if more then 1 clanner hits an IS mech its worth nothing when killed.
third: for a game of clan vs inner sphere to even launch, the clan teams total bv has to be lower then or equal to the IS team (bv determined by in game system that tracks by weapons and armor used on the mechs)(this can be done by ensureing the clanners are all in crappy IS grade mechs for 12 vs 12, or it might be 4 dire wolves vs 20 atlases)
fourth: if you dont like any of the above dont jump ship from IS to go clans, stay IS house or merc and wait to get ahold of clan/lostech and fight dishonorably, clanners fight with honor due to indoctrination, deal with it.

in the end this system, sets it up. the clanners cant just multi target and engage at superior range while kiting which would be game breaking. once they are in range and IS engages they cant just multi target and obliterate the IS team and get max payout, in fact if they dont use zell and kill every IS mech dishonorably theyll get nothing for the win, because win bonus x 0 for not using zell = 0 reward. and with a bv match making scan, it will keep games somewhere in the neighborhood of the IS having a chance to win, rather then going in knowing youre dead before it starts.

Edited by LordDeathStrike, 04 June 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[Outlaw]

One thing i have yet to see adressed, so what happens when the IS decides to break Zell when they agree to it? because last I remember the moment someone on the IS side screwed the pooch all bets were off and it was weapons free for everyone regardless of who shot who, or who called out who.

[MagnusEffect]

In regards to the OP, I think it IS possible and probably the best way to distinguish the difference between Inner Sphere and Clan factions, but the devil is in the details of course. My biggest fear is that playing as part of a Clan faction will not be any different from playing as a House or Merc unit and that there will be zero incentive for Clan players to adhere to Clan traditions (like zellbrigen).

A Battle Value calculator is probably also the other needed tool.