169 replies to this topic

[phelancracken]

Skylarr, on 13 June 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

We all know that in 3050 the average Clan Warrior was better than the average IS warrior. the Clans were better trained, had better equipment and had experience live combat. Weight class to Weight class a Clan Mech can take on a Min of two IS mechs at the same time.

They put something in the game that was over powering. Then they tried to figure out a way to balance it.

I like the Clans and their history. I dislike how they invaded the Inner Sphere.

It seems to my that many of the players here who want to play Clanners are looking for ways, and reasons, not to fight honorably.

Just something to mention. Clan tech mechs could defeat 3025 tech mechs at 2-3 mechs per clan mech lost. However, when it got to the better tech, the clan mechs didn't have such an overwhelming advantage. One thing that is simply ignored, 3025 mechs had massive issues with heat in general. Now imagine said mechs with just double heat sinks? Suddenly, heat issues are not a big problem. That one factor alone is a massive handicap.

BV is factored on several things:

Mobility If your faster than 4/6/0 you had a higher point value.
Heat curve. If it's heat neutral when alpha striking it's got a higher point value
tech. Clan tech is always more expensive.
To a degree, armour protection. This last factor wasn't included in the old systems.

I once had a Solaris VII mech that was redone from a Wolfhound 1 to a mixed tech mech with 7/11/7 speed. With a 2/5 gunner pilot it was the equal in BV to a MAD-5D with only some clan MPLs installed, 3 if I remember correctly. XL engine and max armour. You can imagine who had the better time fighting who.

[Karl Streiger]

phelancracken, on 15 June 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

With a 2/5 gunner pilot

*snip*
- you don't have a modifier for the pilot in MWO - don't you?

As every system BattleValue can be exploited - build a mech that overheats and shutdown with a single salvo -> Penetrator Warlord - both are bound to bracket fire - and both work well - mount ammunition without CASE -> and drop it in the first seconds of battle.

Well and of course there is the force modifer.
That means a star of DIre Wolfs config A -(5 - 3 X Large Pulse, 1 Gauss 2 SSRM6) have 14275 BV points
A Company of Jenner have 10752 BV - when you accept the FM because they are outnumbering the DIre Wolfs -> they have 19000BV
So you have to punish the Jenner that wont have any chance in the combat - when clan don't use Zell - and even when clan don't break Zell - and the mob of Jenner circle arround a single dire wolf it is a hard fight for the IS

[phelancracken]

Snicker.

Nice try. Nice try. We don't know if the pilot modifier will be a factor in MWO now do we? Did you forget that before the FM that the clans were supposed to be a 3/4 versus 4/5 but the IS players wouldn't allow that? That's right, it's found in BMRr. That's a 20% advantage for the IS.

What's funny is this, the fight against the clans is SUPPOSED to be hard. Not an I Win push of a button.

Not to mention, Total Warfare still says it's an optional rule and that it's not possible to balance with zell. BTW, the Jenners get hurt due to their speed. Massively.

Edited by phelancracken, 15 June 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[Rogen]

Clan honor should be in game to balance the less advanced mechs IS have. At least from the begining
I thing that best way is to cut XP and C-bill (kerensky) gain by how many levels your side broken rules.

Do not forget that the rules allow limited reaction to opponent tactics. Clan vs Clan should follow strict rules, while Clan vs IS should leave more place for manuevering.

Also players should understand that clans are not about eamplay they are individuals and fight like that, and the game should reflect that. If someone want teamplay IS is the way.

[phelancracken]

Rogen,

unfortunately, even clan vs clan engagements according to the TW the use of zell by clans was differently interpreted. Clan Wolf for example did a liberal or opportunistic form of zell. I do agree that your saying that it "should" as being not forced but encouraged. It's an optional TT rule that people want to just force the clans to use as a core game mechanic. And actually some clans still use team tactics until the enemy is damaged to a certain degree due to them using light mechs versus heavies and such. They understand that lights have a hard time against much larger mechs.

[CW Grayson]

Rogen, on 15 June 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Also players should understand that clans are not about eamplay they are individuals and fight like that, and the game should reflect that. If someone want teamplay IS is the way.

Neg.
Clanners have no problem with teamplay. If (AND ONLY IF) the enemy (be it clan or IS) accepts zellbrigen then it will be a zellbrigen fight UNLESS someone brakes the rule. Don't try to bump the clans in a "i don't know what combined forces mean" edge.

Let me give you an example how clans use teamwork:

1. A battle 4vs4 clan vs clan, all accept zellbrigen.
2. one pilot (doesn't matter the side) breaks zellbrigen.
3. said pilot gets not only 4 alphastrikes, pilot gets 7 alphastrikes, as his teammates can't stand the dishonour.

Thats's how clanners act.

Edited by CW Grayson, 15 June 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[phelancracken]

Yep. Although, I believe it's Ice Ravens?, Not sure so don't shoot me, do use team tactics of multiple light mechs on one heavy or assault. To a predetermined point then it's one on one dueling. The point being nearly half of the enemy mech's armour gone, after the first exchange of damage, it depends. I will do some research on that. I have read that, just not sure which clan it is and what their limits are on it. Basically, they are saying even clan light mechs can't take on (clan) heavies and assualts if both are fresh.

[Karl Streiger]

CW Grayson, on 15 June 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Neg.
Clanners have no problem with teamplay. If (AND ONLY IF) the enemy (be it clan or IS) accepts zellbrigen then it will be a zellbrigen fight

While talking about the does and don't of Zell - most clan pilots will engage a single target - most IS Mechs engaged by a clan mech will fight only versus this battlemech. Most of us - and I'm as well part of those - make the mistake to think in TT ways. There it is no problem to group your company and target a single mech - but in real time - i don't think that it is that easy to target the same enemy mech like your team. Even if you do - maybe your target that is engaging your mech will use this distraction to move behind you and shoot you in the back. So you stay at your target - resulting in multiple 1 on 1 duels -
when the IS will have a numeric advantage they will bust Zell and group their fire to wipe out a single target - a clans warrior however will wait - till he got a direct order by his commander - or the rules of Zell are not longer enabled.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 June 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[King Bong]

Hey guys I want to join a clan, but can we still keep the fights 1v1, thanks. I mean, I want to join a clan and be all internet cool and stuff, but I don't want to fight more than one person at a time. Where's the honor in that? That would require the clan to, you, know, to get all strategic and stuff. Way too much effort for a video game if you ask me. I know some of you are going to want to come to my house and break my legs and what not, if so can you do me a favor.... If there are more than one of you coming, send the smallest dude after me and make sure the rest of you guys have pillows strapped to your mittens, you know, honor and all; because lets face it, I'm not that good of a fighter.

[Kaine Vulpayne]

CaveMan, on 29 May 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

All this should be laid out up front when you start a Clan character too (and no switching to IS for that character, ever). Rolling Clan should be the game's "hard mode".

This!

My idea to this problem was, instead of drastically increasing the costs for clan tech, to introduce a second line of currency or attribute, namely honor.
every clan tech mech and equipment type is restricted to a certain honor level. if you are above that level you can fíeld the mech/item. otherwise your mech is locked, until you fulfill the requirements again.
honor would be also tied to the advancement in rank.

The devs can not treat clan factions the same as IS factions and allow players to hop in and out. This is viable for mercenary units and the clans normally did not employ those (in fact they greatly despised them). if there will be no balancing factor for the superiority and availability of clan tech, clan teams will always win, so in the end everyone will play clan. or if clan tech will be available for everyone, everyone will use it, ridiculing the original BT universe setting.

but imho the whole idea of zellbrigen etc is quite incompatible to the idea of role warefare. and in the end the clans didn't use zellbrigen against the IS. but we still need a balance factor for the clan tech. otherwise everyone and their mother will play clan and terra will be defended by the last hardcore BT fans. maybe seven.

so another way might be, to introduce another handicap for clans, unrelated to zellbrigen.
e.g. let's say IS team size will be beefed up to a number of twelve at some point, to fight as a company, clan teams might be restricted to ten players, essentially a binary star.
once clan tech will be available in the IS, it should be significantly more expensive to repair for IS, as spare parts are difficult to obtain, only via raids and salvage, while the clans simply can produce it.

being clan should be designed as content for proficient players that want a challenge
or they might make the clans PvE adversaries, who knows?

Edited by Kaine Vulpayne, 07 September 2012 - 07:34 AM.