169 replies to this topic

[phelancracken]

Kartr, on 06 June 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Lol man you made my day, I was laughing so hard after I read this!!


Oh no I completely understand, C3 violates Zell by allowing teamwork that's why Clans never develop anything like it. My whole point has always been twofold: 1. The Clans are extremely OP and the IS needs something to give them an edge. 2. That while the Clans may not actively use Zell against the IS, Zell is so ingrained into their way of thinking that they will subconsciously continue to use it. Which is how I get my conclusion that Zell or at least aspects of it can be used to degrade the Clans edge.


First Zellbrigen isn't "honor" its just a bunch of idiotic rules, just like Bushido isn't. Any "code" that cripples your soldiers when they're fighting a war and forces them to do stupid things like lead sword waving charges across open ground into heavy machine guns, or discouraging the use of teamwork and supporting arms, isn't honorable its just idiotic.

Yes the IS wants the Clans to fight crippled, because the Clan mindset already cripples them. Players won't be crippled by a lifetime of living in the Clans with idiotic Zellbrigen which means the already extreme technological edge won't have anything slowing it down.

No Canon doesn't show the Clans changing tactics, 20 years later they're still singling targets out for single combat and bidding down their forces, nor the IS complaining during those times that the Clans did throw off their psychological shackles and fight like real soldiers. No I don't want to win at all costs, nor do I want to use the Clans as whipping boys, what I want is for the game to achieve balance so that the Clan Players don't instantly roll over and destroy IS players with no contest. I want the IS to have chance at winning, that doesn't exist if you just place players with Clan tech against players with IS tech. I want to see Clan players who aren't crippled by having been raised Clanners, have restrictions placed on them that simulate the crippling cultural mindset of Clanners.

Forcing Clan players to follow Zell or at least punishing them severely does not give the IS an "unfair" advantage the way you claim. It merely helps counter act the unfair advantage that the Clans already have which will make the game more fun for both sides. Since the IS won't just die every time they face the Clans and the Clans will actually be provided with a challenged when fighting the IS.


The Wolves were flexible in how the interpreted Zell before 3005! The recon showed that the IS wasn't as weak as the expected and underscored the need to fight as a real military (suspending Zell altogether) and ensure their logisitical situation.


No the Combine doesn't follow a form of Zell, they follow Bushido. Bushido is not a form of Zell, because it existed before Zell was even conceived of. I'll agree that Bushido is similar to Zell, as they're both a set of rules that existed in a particular culture and cripple their soldiers when fighting a real war.

So yeah the Inner Sphere doesn't use Zell, the Draconis Combine uses bushido which is less crippling than Zell but still idiotic. The Draconis Combine =/= the entire Inner Sphere. Also that Kuritan Warrior was an *****, if Jaime Wolf's Archer is shut down and he's helpless you force him to surrender! You don't let him power up and rejoin his forces.


Yes Zell is burned into their heads, its called conditioning. You train a person to react to a situation a certain way and you make them practice it over and over and over again so that when it happens in real life they don't have to think about it. I still have conditioning left over from my 4 years in the Marine Corps, I can respond to "contact right/left" or "near/far ambush right/left" or a rocket misfire, etc., without having to think about what I'm supposed to do.

I'm conditioned after only 4 years of training and practice, training and practice that started 18 years after I was born. Clan warriors are trained from pretty much birth to engage enemies according to Zellbrigen, that conditioning can't just be turned off. Even if the Clan suspends Zellbrigen, the warriors will subconsciously fall back on to it during the heat of battle because it's how they're conditioned.

The Clans continue to use and follow Zellbrigen even into the "Dark Age" series, they may have adapted some, but they're still crippled by Zellbrigen and their conditioning to follow it. Disregarding that, its pretty obvious that the Clans didn't learn to stop using Zell fast enough. The IS royally kicked the Clans arse 9 years after the invasion started.


I don't want BV because it's an artificial construct with no basis in reality. This boggles my mind, you're ok with crippling Clan players based on an artificial Battle Value system that has no basis in canon or reality, but you don't want to have them handicapped by forcing them to use canon conditioning and other realistic considerations like less Information Warfare abilities/assets?

Why would you want it to be like that? Why use an artificial system with no basis in canon, or logic, or the framework of the game? Why not use things that encourage Clan players to behave like Clans, restricts them from in game assets that they wouldn't use canonically anyway, and generally creates a more dynamic game with more clearly defined advantages and disadvantages for both sides?



Ok this paragraph confuses me, now you're saying Zell would give the IS an advantage to help balance the game. That's what I've been saying all along! No I've never said the Clans were broken, all I've ever said is that their technology is over powered and there need to be constructs that degrade that advantage so that the game is fun and balanced for both sides.


Seriously, there are no rules in MWO! This isn't Risk, or Chess where all the sides are even, or we have a rule book to make sure everyone plays fair. This is a video game that is programmed so that the rules, such that they are, are already built into the game. I can fight you in whatever fashion I want and if the coding allows it, it's not "against the rules."

We' have two sides, one of which has an unfair advantage in any even fight. I'm talking about creating "rules," programmed parameters, that balance the game and make it fun. I've never suggested that the IS gain an unfair advantage over the Clans or break the "rules" (whatever those are). I've only ever suggested that the "rules" or game parameters be written so that the Clans unfair tech advantage is balanced by restricting them in other ways. Ways which I might add the devs have already hinted at that they're exploring.

Edit: btw just curious how old are you? (since you call me "kid" which made me laugh since no one has called me that since I got back from Iraq )

1. Congrats on returning from Iraq safe and sound.

2. I started playing BT before it became CBT right as the 3050 TRO came out. I was an adult then so you have an idea that I most definitely not a youngster. (In fact, older than dirt here.)

3. Furniture hit on the head, IS won't follow zell due to it not being in their best interests. And once zell is broken, all bets are off. Meaning free for all and gang fire due to if your a merc you getting treated in general by canon clans as Bandits and even some house units might be given the same treatment. So why even try and get the clans to fight that way? Seriously, an experienced player will know the truth and either not give zell or ask Smoke Jaguars what they did at Turtle Bay......You forget, they can declare a trial.

4. On the point of BV, I don't care for the system, but it's overall the system that's used for conventions and other games due to it's "balanced" attributes. *sarcasm*

5. As for conditioning, I am willing to wager that even instructors will say that training is only good for so much, real world experience trumps training. As Clint Eastwood said in Heartbreak Ridge, "improvise, adapt, and overcome." Any warrior or soldier will do that if he or she finds out that what they had learned in training isn't working in the field. I know that, you know that from practical experience in Iraq.

6. You want a balanced fight between clans and IS. One is BV, and you can bum rush clans to your heart's content. Otherwise, come up with a better system. Tonnage can work if both sides know and are experienced on what works and don't work in certain tonnages.

I was a clan player(still am but not to the point of not running and understanding IS mechs and tactics) and I was given the task of setting up a terrain for a fight. Now, clans want very open terrain. Maximises our range advantage with a Lot of space to move around. I broke up the terrain with trees, buildings, smoke and other obstacles where clans didn't have their range and to a degree their mobility advantage. Roughly 10-14 hex range between intervening obstacles. (BTW this was 20 years ago so my memory on the distance is a bit hazy.) One of the players who is a diehard IS player took one look at that and removed all terrain. Said my board was too much in favor of the clans!!!!! (SAY WHAT???!!!) Now that just blew my mind giving IS terrain to break up the clans range advantage and then that. This was my first clue of how much the IS diehards hated the clans. So when I see someone saying how can we force clan players to follow zell this is what comes to mind. "How do we screw the clanners so much they won't want to play a faction they truly love to play for the lore or the history." Last time I checked, killing a mech that outweighs you by 20+ tons still is a tough job to do.

Last thought on this, when you say an IS player won't follow zell, then who isn't role playing what? If your a Draconis Combine player and role playing. You should be following Bushido. A lot of Dracs don't, and I don't care that they don't. Reason, it's a game and most definitely, this isn't war. I play to have fun. Do I get competitive? Sure, we all do. But I have taught CBT and enjoy the game.

Thorn,

I agree with what your saying that zell shouldn't be forced. If someone wanted to try and do it, it's up to the players to implement the system. However, IS did use tactics with zell to win some engagements. Close quarters negates range advantages and again, sheer numbers can win if they can get in close enough.

Furniture,

I applaud what you said. Again, hit right on the head about zell and IS thoughts on it.

Edited by phelancracken, 07 June 2012 - 02:27 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Thorn Hallis, on 06 June 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Again, I don't think it is a good idea to implement. First of, lorewise it wouldn't make much sense. The Inner Sphere forces never expected the Clans to use Zell against them in the first place.

I got that point already. To use Zell as a weapon when facing Clans is stupid on the board and to work you need timing.
While Clanwarriors are primed to achieve victory - facing defeat vs IS will result in a greater loose of honor as breaking Zell.
Same is with Bushido - they are primed to destroy their enemy - at all costs

The question is only should players be encouraged to stay within their role. Althoug that would mean as a Lyran I get the most gain when piloting a Atlas dealing no damage and destroying my mech on the most stupid way...LOL

Edited by Karl Streiger, 07 June 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Lots of good posts guys.

As someone said, you are trained a certain way to react to certain things until you do not have to think about, it just becomes second nature. IS mech pilots train in simulators, Clan pilots train with live mechs & live weapons (under-powered but still live). You are taught to move a certain way, when there is a plain, when there are hills etc. True the Clans fight their Trials in mostly open areas, this was evident in a particular campaign (the name escapes me right now) & that particular Clan got stuck for a good deal of time until they eventually adapted & got to where they were going. I really loved the MW2 (what should I call it? a sourcebook) that had all the mech formations (line astern, line abreast etc.)

This brings me to how fights actually go down. Clan warriors are conditioned to fight a particular way when dealing with honorable foes as opposed to say bandits. Teaming up robs a Clan warrior of claiming the honor of downing that particular opponent. Again it is not a case of 2 IS pilots shoot a Clan pilot & zell is called off immediately. The Clan pilot who has been double-teamed now has the freedom to return fire on the second mech unless it has already been claimed. Remember units have their own comm channel, so if Mechwarrior Bob is fighting an IS pilot say in a Highlander & a Cyclops joins in, someone can simply say, "I have the Cyclops or Engaging the Cyclops". If Bob does not hear anything to that effect he can shoot the Cyclops. This actually favors Bob as he gets the opportunity to take down two opponents which gives him the chance to gain more prestige.This makes a good mess hall story as well as cast Bob in the spotlight. If four or five mechs fires on one Clan pilot & it happens enough times, a general order may be given to abandon zellbrigen. I say may because that is not always the case, as when Clan Coyote was fighting during Operation: Klondike & Dana Kufahl ordered her warriors to stick to zellbrigen no matter what.

Quote

“Coyote One, say again intentions.”
Dana just shook her head, partially in exasperation but also in a sorrowful disbelief. She knew the orders she had given to her warriors were clear, as was her communiqué to Khan Kalasa. She also knew her ilKhan’s directives at the outset of the operation:

“Fight with honor. Your decisions and your actions will be evidence to all of the righteousness of these, our Clans.” Unfortunately, others apparently did not accept Nicholas’ directive. It was up to her to help them understand and embrace that vision.

She keyed up the inter-Clan command channel. “Fox One, Coyote Cluster is disengaging and will rally at point Sigma-Two.”
“*** **** YOU!” Even the radio’s auto gain feature could not subdue the Sea Fox Khan’s curse enough to keep it from hurting Dana’s ears. “Get your Coyotes back into this battle!”

Throttling up to reach the top of point Sigma-Two, a hill that offered a relatively commanding view of the city of Camlaan, Dana thought better of replying. For all their bluster, the Sea Foxes were capable warriors, but their leaders still did not understand some of the precepts of the Clan society, despite Nicholas’ every attempt to educate them. Nor did they understand that their indiscriminate attacks not only brought dishonor upon themselves but on the Coyotes as well. Dana could not let her warriors break their oaths to Nicholas. Only the Sea Foxes could right this wrong.

A new voice sounded on the command circuit. “Fox One, Skyfox One-One. Forget her. You’ve got a column five blocks to your north inbound. Rally at the fountain and I’ll see what I can do.” It was Nagasawa, Kalasa’s fighter commander.

“Wilco.” Kalasa sounded exasperated. “Buy me enough time to get some cover.”
Dana shook her head again and sighed. Anyone can drop a bomb or mow down an enemy with a firing squad. A true warrior fights honorably. Massed fire and saturation bombing were not the ways of a Clan warrior. Those were the tactics of the morally bankrupt—the very thing the Clans were battling right now.

A pair of Sea Fox Rapiers—one of them almost certainly piloted by Nagasawa—swooped down to drop their cluster bombs on the BattleMechs moving down the street towards their Khan. Even two kilometers away, Dana felt the shockwaves rattle her Black Knight. Before Nagasawa was a pilot, she was a talented journalist. It was no surprise that Nicholas recruited her to assist him in crafting his messages to his people. Dana just could not understand why Nicholas would entrust so much to someone who so clearly did not embrace the most basic of his ideals.

Dana sat in her command couch and watched, her warriors arrayed about her. A column of vehicles rolled up, techs jumping out to begin quick checks of their assigned BattleMechs while armorers set up the cranes and field gantries they would need to refill the Coyotes’ depleted ammunition bins. Ahead of her, the battle raged on, Sea Fox fighters continuing their strafing and bombing runs while Kalasa and Nagasawa both tried to direct FoxStars into positions where they could ambush their opponents.

The battle will be over soon enough. If the Sea Foxes will not fight with honor, we may have to show them how.

Battletech: Historical - Operation Klondike Pg.8

Zellbrigen can be cast aside from the get go if in reply to a batchall, the defender clearly states he/she will pull no punches, recognize no rules & will use whatever means is at his/her disposal to fight OR simply curses and/or threatens the attackers.

Quote

The rest of the Hound's Third Battalion entered a crater dust bowl in staggered, standard "V" formation, spreading out and seeking cover as they advanced, still not aware that their every move was being watched intently and recorded by the Khans of Clan Wolf. They received their first hint that things were not as expected when a challenge came over the comm to identify their unit and their strength, so that they could be engaged in a standard Trial of Possession.

Believing that this was some new stall by the Rebels, Major Preston, commander of the Thrid Battalion, retorted that he hadn't realized Ryan and his band of slime had gone insane. He suggested that a laser ***** would end their troubles. The Khans, taken aback by the earthiness of the enemy commander's reply (Clan warriors seldom curse), decided that a civilized duel was out of the question. They released a mixed Star of Omnimechs and Elementals to meet the Kell Hounds at the northeast lip of the crater.

Blood of Kerensky - Lethal Heritage Pg.28

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 07 June 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[Skylarr]

Zellbringing is not only 1v1 combat. Playing TT I have seen a clan warrior challeng multiple IS Mechs. I have also seen CLan issue challenges and IS force axcepted the challenges. A couple rounds into the fight an IS Mech decided to shoot at one of the Clan Mechs involved in 1v1 fighting. The next round every clan Mech inrange of the offending IS turned and fired at it. I do not remember if the IS Mechwarrior was able to eject out of his Mech before it fusioned. This was all clan Tech against 3025 Mechs with the Field Refit Kits. The 3050 refits kits made by FWL only contained Weapons, equipment and XL engines..

[Battalia]

So a little background about me, I have 4 IS TT mechs and 4 Clan TT mechs, and have played and enjoyed both, so I am unbiased in the whole clan vs IS thing, but here is my thoughts on a Zellbringing system in MWO:

So the match starts and everyone is getting organized. Clan Pilots can pull up the list of enemy mechs in battle and select one to challenge. Once challenged that player recieves an audio and visual indication. This player can ignore the challenge (by not doing anything), decline the challenge, or accept the challenge. If the challenge is accepted then both mechs show up on radar of both teams as allied and a "DO NOT FIRE" message is displayed when targetting them. This allows them to duel in relative safety of not getting targetted by outside parties BY MISTAKE. If an outside mech targets one of the dueling members, that mech then shows as a different color on radar and he is a priority target for the opposing team rewarding them for damagin/destroying the honorless pilot. The damaged pilot can choose to call off the duel because of interferance reverting both mechs back to normal. (But any augmented bonus earned before that point is retained). during a duel, you earn augmented exp and c-bills (to outweigh giving up other targets and for fighting honorably) and earns you faction points or whatever. The larger the BV or weight class gap the better the bonus for the underdog and the smaller the bonus for the heavyweight. Obviously there is little honor to gain for a Mad Cat to earn from destroying a Jenner.

This system rewards clan pilots for acting like clan pilots, and rewards IS pilots for beating the clan at their own game, while still allowing outside mechs to come in and mess up the duel just like cannon.

[Skylarr]

How about this idea. For as long as the IS pilot stay inside the rues of the Zellbringing with the Clanner he also gains Honor points. Then in the future when the clanner is looking at what IS mech to challenge he can see that Mech HL (Honor Level) and vice versa.

Then in the future the IS warrior can buy Clan Weapons and equipment based on his HL. This would represent salvage he has gained. With a high enough HL the IS Mechwarrior can eventually buy a Clan Mech.

Edited by Skylarr, 07 June 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[phelancracken]

I like that idea Skylarr. It would also allow a Draconis Combine player if he or she chooses to follow the Bushido code as well.

[Joanna Conners]

phelancracken, on 07 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

1. Congrats on returning from Iraq safe and sound.

2. I started playing BT before it became CBT right as the 3050 TRO came out. I was an adult then so you have an idea that I most definitely not a youngster. (In fact, older than dirt here.)

3. Furniture hit on the head, IS won't follow zell due to it not being in their best interests. And once zell is broken, all bets are off. Meaning free for all and gang fire due to if your a merc you getting treated in general by canon clans as Bandits and even some house units might be given the same treatment. So why even try and get the clans to fight that way? Seriously, an experienced player will know the truth and either not give zell or ask Smoke Jaguars what they did at Turtle Bay......You forget, they can declare a trial.

4. On the point of BV, I don't care for the system, but it's overall the system that's used for conventions and other games due to it's "balanced" attributes. *sarcasm*

5. As for conditioning, I am willing to wager that even instructors will say that training is only good for so much, real world experience trumps training. As Clint Eastwood said in Heartbreak Ridge, "improvise, adapt, and overcome." Any warrior or soldier will do that if he or she finds out that what they had learned in training isn't working in the field. I know that, you know that from practical experience in Iraq.

6. You want a balanced fight between clans and IS. One is BV, and you can bum rush clans to your heart's content. Otherwise, come up with a better system. Tonnage can work if both sides know and are experienced on what works and don't work in certain tonnages.

I was a clan player(still am but not to the point of not running and understanding IS mechs and tactics) and I was given the task of setting up a terrain for a fight. Now, clans want very open terrain. Maximises our range advantage with a Lot of space to move around. I broke up the terrain with trees, buildings, smoke and other obstacles where clans didn't have their range and to a degree their mobility advantage. Roughly 10-14 hex range between intervening obstacles. (BTW this was 20 years ago so my memory on the distance is a bit hazy.) One of the players who is a diehard IS player took one look at that and removed all terrain. Said my board was too much in favor of the clans!!!!! (SAY WHAT???!!!) Now that just blew my mind giving IS terrain to break up the clans range advantage and then that. This was my first clue of how much the IS diehards hated the clans. So when I see someone saying how can we force clan players to follow zell this is what comes to mind. "How do we screw the clanners so much they won't want to play a faction they truly love to play for the lore or the history." Last time I checked, killing a mech that outweighs you by 20+ tons still is a tough job to do.

Last thought on this, when you say an IS player won't follow zell, then who isn't role playing what? If your a Draconis Combine player and role playing. You should be following Bushido. A lot of Dracs don't, and I don't care that they don't. Reason, it's a game and most definitely, this isn't war. I play to have fun. Do I get competitive? Sure, we all do. But I have taught CBT and enjoy the game.

I've got to say, you behaved very rudely and managed to avoid actually apologizing for it. Even if you are "older than dirt" it doesn't give you the right to criticize younger people in such a way.

I must disagree that training is only good for so much. If you've been trained well it takes over. You don't think. You act. You remember what you've been taught. It's pure instinct. Experience only enhances that, but it is not a substitute for good training.

I'm not really interested in forcing Clan players to follow Zell. Some will, some won't. I accept that it's a game and not reality when it comes down to this debate.

[Tterrag]

Definition of being a dick: don't steal kills, don't gang up on the little guys, don't aim for the cockpit, and don't swarm one mech at a time fight individually.

[Joanna Conners]

Tterrag, on 07 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Definition of being a dick: don't steal kills, don't gang up on the little guys, don't aim for the cockpit, and don't swarm one mech at a time fight individually.

I agree on the first one. The rest is simply normal behavior for the IS.

[Gremlich Johns]

Tterrag, on 07 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Definition of being a dick: don't steal kills, don't gang up on the little guys, don't aim for the cockpit, and don't swarm one mech at a time fight individually.

Do you not really mean: "Definition of being a Dick: steal kills, gang up on the little guys, aiming for the cockpit and swarm one mech at a time, correcting another guy's post."?

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 07 June 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[Kenaris]

Sorry just the name of your Topic made me think of this..





so at least crazy science hair guy agrees with you..

Edited by Kenaris, 07 June 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Tterrag]

Yeah what he put

[Kartr]

phelancracken, on 07 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

1. Congrats on returning from Iraq safe and sound.

Thanks

phelancracken, on 07 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

3. Furniture hit on the head, IS won't follow zell due to it not being in their best interests. And once zell is broken, all bets are off. Meaning free for all and gang fire due to if your a merc you getting treated in general by canon clans as Bandits and even some house units might be given the same treatment. So why even try and get the clans to fight that way? Seriously, an experienced player will know the truth and either not give zell or ask Smoke Jaguars what they did at Turtle Bay......You forget, they can declare a trial.

Why are all bets off? Zell was intended to be the balancing item to restrict the Clans from being able to simply slaughter IS players, BV wasn't added till later.

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.

Each warrior will challenge an enemy, any extra warriors will refrain from entering the fray until a comrade is defeated. Sounds like a rule developed by the game designers to prevent Clan players from using their longer range and greater damage from simply focusing fire and nuking IS players 'Mechs. Or from double teaming inferior IS 'Mechs. Both making it more fair for IS players fighting Clan forces.

• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.

A warrior has the right to refuse challenges, if underhanded ploys are expected. This does not absolve them from using point one, they're still required to issue challenges and not engage targets their allies are fighting. Sounds like a rule to ensure IS players can't take advantage of Zellbrigen by allowing the Clan player the right to not engage, preventing Clan players from being forced to suicide into traps they think or know exist. This does not absolve them of having to still issue challenges and not engage their allies targets.

• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.

This prevents Clan players from being forced to commit suicide by IS players, through the method of an IS player issuing a challenge to a Clan pilot who would be likely to loose because of the weight difference. This does not allow Clan players to deviate from point one.

• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.

This rule prevents Clan players from employing artillery, it does not say that if the other uses artillery you're allowed to. Though it also doesn't say you're not allowed to use artillery if the other side does. So this one at the least prevents Clan players from employing artillery unless their enemies do, or it prevents them from using artillery period, depending on how strictly you interpret it. It also doesn't allow you to deviate from the previous points if they do bring artillery.

• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.

No ducking out of sight to avoid getting hit and if they duck around a corner you have to follow them. A rule that balances out the Clans superior weapons by not allowing them to take cover and forcing them to remain in LOS even if that means giving up their range advantage by following an enemy around a "corner." Like the first few rules there's no clause that lets you ignore this rule.

• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like [color="#5a3696"]C3[/color] and [color="#5a3696"]TAG[/color], are forbidden.

The Clans are not allowed to use C3, TAG or NARC which gives the IS several technologies to increase their own ranges to help counter balance the Clan range advantage. No clause available to get out of this rule.

• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.

This one is can be defined pretty much how a player wants, can't move out of enemy weapons range or can't move out of his own weapons range. Sounds like a loosely defined rule that the game designers put in to encourage Clan players to engage the IS players within the IS weapons range, but worded loosely enough so as to not force them to.

• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.

A rule to help minimize the heat advantage Clan pilots have over IS pilots by forcing them to fire at least one weapon any time weapons are available. This means if you're trying to loose heat you better hope you have a machine gun to fire so you don't have to fire those ER PPCs that are also ready to fire.

Now a friend who remembers when the Clans came out assures me that Zellbrigen wasn't introduced with them and definitely wasn't designed to balance them against the IS. While I trust him I find this odd since this system that was supposedly developed in the Clans when fighting each other contains a rule that specifically applies the IS. It is also odd in my opinion that these rules of Zellbrigen which seem perfectly tailored to help even things out weren't part of a system to balance the Clans.

I think this is why I and many other IS players want Zellbrigen to be used to help even the odds and make the game more than just a slaughter of IS units. It allows Clan players to use their superior range, but prevents them from focusing fire to destroy IS units before the IS units can reach their own firing range. It prohibits both sides from using artillery, so if one side used it the other could. It has clauses that prevent IS players from forcing Clan players into traps or impossible fights and it negates heat and armor advantages by forcing Clan players to fire something any time they can and not take cover to avoid shots.

There is nothing in Zellbrigen itself that says "if someone violates these rules you're free to ignore them" and that seems to be on either the individual warrior and the Clan. The story Jaroth posted shows that some Clans will follow Zellbrigen no matter what the other side or their allies might do. This reinforces that there is no hard and fast rule that establishes when you're allowed to break Zellbrigen. Of course Clan players will never use Zell, even the RPers will stop using it the instant they've been given an excuse to.

So the way I see it, we have the perfect foundation for creating a system that balances Clans superior tech vs the Inner Spheres superior understanding of warfare. Since there is nothing in Zellbrigen that says when it is nullified, and this is a game that has programmed parameters, the devs can decide how strict they want the Clans to adhere to Zellbrigen. If the Clans show that they're consistently whipping IS butt, the devs can simply increase the strictness of Zellbrigen, if the Clans are consistently getting their arses handed to them the devs can loosen Zellbrigen.

For example parameters of a strict interpretation could make IS 'Mechs un-attackable by other Clan players once someone had hit them with weapons fire. If this proves to be too much of a handicap the devs could turn it off and only decrease the xp and c-bill gain for every Clan player that engages the IS 'Mech.

Another example would be to program it so that any time a Clan player has the chance to fire on their target (its in their sights and weapons are up) the Clan player has 10s to take a shot. If they don't take the shot with at least one weapon by the time those 10s are up it automatically fires the selected weapons group. The amount of time a Clan pilot has to take the shot could be easily adjusted by the devs to balance them one way or another via the heat generated.

Less draconian methods could be used as well, like if you don't re-establish LOS with your enemy after so many seconds you loose credit for any damage you've done to them. Or if the enemy fires at you and you move out of LOS (take cover) you loose credit for any damage you've done to them. Or if Clan players keep loosing you can decrease it to only lose a portion of the credit.

Artillery strikes for Clan commanders could be locked until the IS side had fired off theirs first.

Basically my point is that there is no hard and fast "Zellbrigen is no longer in effect after this or that rule has been violated" it is entirely based on each Clan and pilot. Zellbrigen is already a great framework for handicapping the Clans to even the game out for the IS. The devs can establish how strictly they think Zellbrigen should be adhered to in order to help balance the game, since players won't follow Zellbrigen and handicap themselves if it is left up to them.

phelancracken, on 07 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

5. As for conditioning, I am willing to wager that even instructors will say that training is only good for so much, real world experience trumps training. As Clint Eastwood said in Heartbreak Ridge, "improvise, adapt, and overcome." Any warrior or soldier will do that if he or she finds out that what they had learned in training isn't working in the field. I know that, you know that from practical experience in Iraq.

Yes training only counts for so much, however the more deeply ingrained it is the harder to shake it off when its not working. The Clans are about as strongly conditioned as one can get, which means they'd have one hell of a time trying to shake off deeply ingrained behaviors. As for me, well the guys who trained me were all combat vets and taught us what worked, the SNCOs and Officers who'd never seen combat and wanted things done the "right" way, were politely told to go shove it.

phelancracken, on 07 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

6. You want a balanced fight between clans and IS. One is BV, and you can bum rush clans to your heart's content. Otherwise, come up with a better system. Tonnage can work if both sides know and are experienced on what works and don't work in certain tonnages.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do, come up with a better system than BV. Since Zellbrigen already exists and has great potential for handicapping the Clans, is also fairly flexible so that the amount of handicap can be adjusted, and has no hard fast rule on when its no longer in effect, it offers great potential for use as the new system. Since this is a computer game, it can be coded to force players to abide by the handicap as well.

Except any time someone brings up handicapping the Clans, every single Clan player starts pitching a hissy fit about how you want to be unfair to them and Zellbrigen doesn't work that way. Well I'm sorry Zellbrigen can be forced on warriors by their superiors even if the other side isn't using it, which means that the devs would not be breaking lore if they enforced a certain level of Zellbrigen. Zellbrigen is also a handicap any time the other side doesn't abide by it, so yes it can work that way. Also I'm sorry, (not really), but the Clans can't be allowed to simply walk all over IS players. This is a game and for it to be fun, both sides have to have the same chance at victory.

phelancracken, on 07 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

<amusing anecdote> So when I see someone saying how can we force clan players to follow zell this is what comes to mind. "How do we screw the clanners so much they won't want to play a faction they truly love to play for the lore or the history." Last time I checked, killing a mech that outweighs you by 20+ tons still is a tough job to do.

Except most players don't want to play the Clans for their lore or history, and this is just going to be even more true for MW:O. You're going to get a ton of players who have never played BattleTech before, or who aren't lore junkies playing and they will gravitate towards the Clans and their superior tech.

You love the Clans, I don't understand that given how vile their society is, but I respect that and I don't want to screw you over so bad you don't want to play. All I want is for us to both have a chance at winning and doing it in a way that doesn't just force you to drive something 20 tons lighter than me. I would rather a system that forced you to give up some of the advantages you have and give me some advantages that you don't have.

To me it seems that our goals should be compatible since you say you set TT maps up in order to minimize the Clans range advantage.

phelancracken, on 07 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Last thought on this, when you say an IS player won't follow zell, then who isn't role playing what? If your a Draconis Combine player and role playing. You should be following Bushido. A lot of Dracs don't, and I don't care that they don't. Reason, it's a game and most definitely, this isn't war. I play to have fun. Do I get competitive? Sure, we all do. But I have taught CBT and enjoy the game.

From a purely semantic point of view, IS players not using Zellbrigen aren't necessarily not role playing because IS 'MechWarriors don't have/use Zellbrigen. In fact it doesn't make sense for an IS player to use Zellbrigen if they're roleplaying because odds are they wouldn't actually use it unless they were trying to duel a Clan pilot to prevent their forces from being butchered.

Even Drac players don't have to follow Zellbrigen for the exact same reasons. Also Bushido has similar, but not identical tenets so it is possible for a Drac player to roleplay following Bushido and still not follow Zellbrigen.

[phelancracken]

Demona, on 07 June 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I've got to say, you behaved very rudely and managed to avoid actually apologizing for it. Even if you are "older than dirt" it doesn't give you the right to criticize younger people in such a way.

Snicker. I wasn't the one that started calling other person "kid" first. Kartr made that assumption and I got a chuckle from that.

Kartr, zell has been with the clans since the TRO 3050 came out. The balancing of mechs has been done by the points system that evolved into the current BV2 system. I still remember buying my first Battletech compendium back when they came out in 1990. I checked my Clan Wolf Sourcebook and it came out one year later. I even recall players who were into the clans playing with zell as soon as the clan mechs came out. It was a way to balance before the points system came out and give flavor.

Also the not firing a weapon when it's available is prohibited. Ummm, yeah. Let's see about this. If your in a Warhawk prime and just alpha striked, your either at or very close to auto shut down. That rule doesn't take into account ammo explosions. good thing that Adder has a flamer so . Same thing as that Warhawk prime. A bit of common sense. A clan warrior isn't going to keep heating up if there is no good reason for it. You want to get that heat down to a point where your mech can function effectively. See my other post about this being an OPTIONAL rule that makes balancing very near impossible.

On a side note, even if you were trained on what works, the enemy I am sure changes tactics just try and counter your tactics. Well, at least the enemies that want to keep fighting.....

Edited by phelancracken, 08 June 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[phelancracken]

Kartr, on 05 June 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

Lol this is WAR kid, there are no rules. The IS didn't exploit the rules because in war the only rule is to WIN! Since there are no rules, the IS didn't cheat and lying to your enemy isn't just a perfectly valid tactic it is actually admirable. Sir Winston Churchill once said "Truth is so precious that she must often be attended by a bodyguard of lies." Keeping your enemies in the dark about your forces, your positions and your intentions is vital to success.

So your indignation is quite funny to behold. "Yes, they lied and cheated..!!" Oh my, they did!? Of course they did, only idiots tell their enemies how many troops you're bringing to battle and where you're attacking. Telling your enemy what you're going to do isn't "honorable" it's stupid and should earn anyone who does it a Darwin Award.

I have to laugh at the fact you called me "kid". It did make my day Kartr.

[Sav]

Ive read most of the post here. I couldnt find anyone mention the one fault mentioned here. Which is Zellbrigin was only offered to honorable foe. They considered most IS to be barbarians or pirates which are not subject to Zell but annahilation. Not all clans observe this, also but there is a flaw in the idea.

[Waladil]

Dear lord, I think that I've never seen so many walls of text in a forum. Not exaggerating there, I admit I skipped over a lot of posts because I didn't want to read a page and a half to get a minor point.

Anyway, my point is slightly off-topic (yet highly pertinent to the Zell discussion).

IS warriors are raised where total war is the norm, fights are to the death, and quarter is rarely offered. The histories they were taught talk of the great horrors of war: Nuclear destruction, mass infrastructure damage condemning millions to starvation. An IS warrior is a combination of a soldier and a wild animal, fighting desperately for survival. It would be out of character for an IS warrior to do ANYTHING to fail to win (Dracs being the exception, of course). This includes whining about whether or not Clanners are using Zell! There is no "below the belt" to an IS warrior.

Clanners are raised in a world where major wars are rare, and combat is a ritual, not intended out of spite or hatred, but to make decisions. If you disagree with someone, challenge them to a Trial, then the winner buys drinks after. Things like Zellbrigen, the Trials, and bidding all serve to minimize the destruction caused by trials of combat, which underscore the inherent difference of why the Clanners fight.

In short, IS fight total wars, Clans fight limited battles.

The problem is that computer games lend themselves better to total wars than limited battles. Since there's no way to die, there's no reason to hold anything back and no reason to offer anyone else an honorable loss. Maybe for that reason adding two (seemingly unrelated) things would help Zell eventually get enforced, among all players.

1.) 'Mech's can be destroyed, and lost until you grind up a new one, BUT

2.) A system is instituted where players can retreat from battles, ensuring the survival of you and your 'Mech. Normally, this is a loss and is penalized (0 xp/c-bills for IS, 0 xp/ loss of honor for Clan), but if your opponent gives you leave to retreat then it's counted as a "draw" for you and a "win" for your opponent. For the victor, killing an enemy, forcing him to retreat dishonorably, and allowing him to honorably retreat all end in the same results of honor/xp/c-bills/whatever, the only difference is that the loser gets off easier. Hopefully that would encourage people to allow others to retreat honorably, in the hope that it would come back around to them when they need to retreat.

Hopefully, assuming I'm not totally off my rocker, those two systems would encourage battles to be more ritualized and more courteous, which would pave the road for true Zell, which is pretty much the ultimate form of ritualized courteous (horribly violent) decision-making.

[Dataman]

hahaha this amuses me, clanners.

as long as you stick to your honorable code or something, you'll never win against a lance of so called freebirth.

IS warriors claims almost anything killing method is valid. teamwork? yep. legging the **** out of bigger mechs? yep.

a 1 hit kill right through its cockpit? it's valid.

it's a war, not sports.

Edited by Dataman, 08 June 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[phelancracken]

Wadadil,

You are right that the IS fight total war. The clans before the chosen 40 per clan were fighting to redeem the settled worlds according to canon were just as nasty in fighitng with WMD. The closest followers of Kerensky went from the Pentagon worlds to Strana Mechy to let the remainder of the Star League in exile people do essentially what the IS did, in just 20 years. Found in the Clan Wolf Sourcebook.

This is why clans wanted to fight a limited war. They too have seen unlimited war. That's what caused their creation.

Edited by phelancracken, 08 June 2012 - 09:56 AM.