142 replies to this topic

[Grizley]

The only loadout I think is super cheese at the moment is the 3L.

It's the perfect storm of balance issues, ECM, poor hit boxes, spotty netcode and streaks.

The AC20 and SRM cats are slightly OP given the very tight quarters of most maps, but they blow when not able to sneak up on people. Nothing is really severely out of wack for anything else. SRMs and LRMs should probably be returned to TT damage, ECM needs balanced and the netcode for fast movers needs fixing.

[Xmith]

I will use a so called cheese build any time everytime if it helps me to win.

[deforce]

let summarize this thread.


all the baddies want the rest of the population to run around with:

single heat sinks
lbx 10's
small pulse lasers
mg's
XL engines

so we can be terrible like you and take 12 minutes to finish a match and end with like 200 dmg?


if you like running crap builds, you will most likely lose and ELO will throw you with other baddies like you or noobs in trial mechs. if you like to win, you will take competitive builds and win, pretty much the point of ELO. if you keep getting *****, stop bi+ching and keep losing till you are surrounded with trial mechs and feel right at home.

[Broceratops]

Actually if you don't care so much about a invisible elo stat, or your KDR and W/L, which are going to get reset anyway, this is the absolute best time to play crappy builds.

Why? because there's no more weight matching. You can play an ac/20 raven and not have to fear that there is a 3L which you have no chance against. You can bring a dragon and not screw your team over because there is a high chance the other team now has a K2, A1, 3D, or Ilya. You can play an Awesome and not watch as your counterpart DDC goes on a rampage.

Edited by Broceratops, 28 February 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Budor]

Broceratops, on 28 February 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Actually if you don't care so much about a invisible elo stat, or your KDR and W/L, which are going to get reset anyway, this is the absolute best time to play crappy builds.

Why? because there's no more weight matching. You can play an ac/20 raven and not have to fear that there is a 3L which you have no chance against. You can bring a dragon and not screw your team over because there is a high chance the other team now has a K2, A1, 3D, or Ilya. You can play an Awesome and not watch as your counterpart DDC goes on a rampage.

Does this mean there wil be a time when i cannot play like that anymore Oo

[One Medic Army]

Broceratops, on 28 February 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Actually if you don't care so much about a invisible elo stat, or your KDR and W/L, which are going to get reset anyway, this is the absolute best time to play crappy builds.

Why? because there's no more weight matching. You can play an ac/20 raven and not have to fear that there is a 3L which you have no chance against. You can bring a dragon and not screw your team over because there is a high chance the other team now has a K2, A1, 3D, or Ilya. You can play an Awesome and not watch as your counterpart DDC goes on a rampage.

With the qualifier: it's only the best time to run crappy builds if you're not normally running good builds in that weight class.
If you normally run a brawler D-DC and switch to a slow awesome mounted with mass SPL expect to get spanked until your Elo has tanked to where the combination of that build+your skill belongs.

[Grizley]

deforce, on 28 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

let summarize this thread.


all the baddies want the rest of the population to run around with:

single heat sinks
lbx 10's
small pulse lasers
mg's
XL engines

so we can be terrible like you and take 12 minutes to finish a match and end with like 200 dmg?


if you like running crap builds, you will most likely lose and ELO will throw you with other baddies like you or noobs in trial mechs. if you like to win, you will take competitive builds and win, pretty much the point of ELO. if you keep getting *****, stop bi+ching and keep losing till you are surrounded with trial mechs and feel right at home.

I think that's an unfair summary. Some people certainly seem to be trending to anything they don't like is cheese, but not the majority.

I expect every mech to have some sort of advantage, that's not cheese, that's expected. Like 3xUAC Muromets, the mech is designed for that. Is it good? Sure. Is it OP? Not unless you want to go the only way to play the LB-10X and MG route you mention.

I'm fine with a light mech running around with 4ML or 2ML and streaks. It works, there is a way to use it well and all that.

I do draw the line at the 3L just because it's a convergence of pretty much every balance problem in the game right now.

[Vlad Ward]

Last I checked, "Cheese" was what you called something like planetary fortress rush that has a stupidly low chance of actually working and that no one does for that reason.

Everything mentioned in the OP is just good Mechs being good.

[Broceratops]

Budor, on 28 February 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Does this mean there wil be a time when i cannot play like that anymore Oo

Only if you care about invisible Elo and maintaining your private stats at some arbitrary number! Which you shouldn't.

Play crappy builds, tank to the level where you're playing against other crappy builds, and have fun! Then when you want to be all serious, you'll climb back up until you want to play crappy builds again.


FREEDOM SYSTEM IS BEST SYSTEM.

[Zylo]

Pkunk, on 28 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Ninja edit: This topic is not meant to discuss whether or not something is a cheezebuild. It is about wheter or not players have seen such a drastic difference in mechs on the battlefield.

I've seen some players state that elo has been enabled alhough I haven't seen this in the patch notes. It seems likely because my matches are becoming increasingly difficult. But not mostly because the players are more skilled but because most matches it's cheeze build galore. I hardly see anything except ravens 3L, Atlas D-DC, trip uac/5 Muromets, splatcats, splatstalkers and gausspults..

Is elo indeed enabled and is this the result? Are there more players experiencing this?

Elo seems to be active.

I have noticed that Elo forces more fair fights in terms of skill ratings so players attempt to gain any advantage by running the generally accepted powerful "cheesebuilds" to gain the advantage to pull off a win.

Elo may match players up based on rated skill but it does not take mech builds into account. The effects of powerful builds is more visible when matchmaker does not produce a game with matched weights. For example a team that gets a 4x light mech pre-made on the new Alpine map has a very good chance of winning just by capping the base since the enemy team won't have a 100% chance of also ending up with 4 light mechs. Sure there is a chance the enemy team might even have 5 or more lights but the chances are pretty low.

As a serious player I don't mind Elo forcing some players to run what others refer to as "cheesebuilds" because I build my mechs to be effective at countering many popular builds. The current system for the most part works fine for me although I would like to see a higher priority on weight matching as many of the matches that don't end in a close score seem to be decided by weight and the resulting firepower advantage (unless the light team just caps but rewards are bad for that).

From the complaints I have seen about Elo, it appears that the system mixes high and low rated players to balance against an average team. The best solution would be tiers of Elo ratings to match players within each tier when possible to prevent the complaints from high rated players about being teamed with new players as well as preventing new players from being thrown into an expert level match where they die instantly from a jump sniper headshot.

[Royalewithcheese]

Vlad Ward, on 28 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Everything mentioned in the OP is just good Mechs being good.

And we can't have that!

[deforce]

Grizley, on 28 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I think that's an unfair summary. Some people certainly seem to be trending to anything they don't like is cheese, but not the majority.

I expect every mech to have some sort of advantage, that's not cheese, that's expected. Like 3xUAC Muromets, the mech is designed for that. Is it good? Sure. Is it OP? Not unless you want to go the only way to play the LB-10X and MG route you mention.

I'm fine with a light mech running around with 4ML or 2ML and streaks. It works, there is a way to use it well and all that.

I do draw the line at the 3L just because it's a convergence of pretty much every balance problem in the game right now.

im pretty notorious for taking dumb builds, i play a lot, so i get bored. ill sport my 4mg/1 flamer cicada, 2srm6 commando, wang, etc. Im not boasting, but I prolly have a fairly high ELO based on my win/loss ratio so when i take these, and i get $h1+ on by any competitive build i dont go onto the forums and complain. i really really think a lot of players are being carried by a team and when they do finally solo drop, its a rude awakening that you no longer can pwn in your terribad builds.

[Psikez]

I miss the days when the only thing to complain about was the dual gauss catapault

[Larth]

I'd be happy to make a Catapult A1 with 4-6 lrm 15's instead...long range, don't need to worry about speed and can stay behind cover so my ears don't get shot off. I'd be happy to rain 90 damage instead of get within 180 meters and shoot you with 90 damage. At least it's not srm's......

Oh and the K2 does mount 4 energy slots, suppose I could put ERPPC's there and keep the machine guns. That'd make people happy, right? I mean no guass cannons in a machine gun slot....

The only way your going to really solve it is by not modifying the mech at all. Sticking with the stock build and the stock variants. Some of these variants are from 3025 and don't have 3050 tech. Plus most of the cheeze builds aren't too terrible. Funny thing is when the Clans come, who have like 1/3 again the range of all our current weapons, people are gonna complain about that. Everyone (everyone used loosely) seems to think when they arrive, we the players will have immediate access to their weapons and tech. As I recall, it was hard to get Clan Tech, least of all the tech you wanted. The I.S. did not trade with them, they had to scavenge, and considering they often lost, there wasn't much scavenging going on.

About the ELO/cheeze thing, I'm not concerned. Every mech has a weakness and every mech can be exploited somehow. We are human, trust me, someone will find a way.

Edited by Larth, 28 February 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Glythe]

Bfvmg, on 28 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

So what is NOT considered a cheesebuild?

It seems like everything these days is a cheese build???

So what constitutes a cheese build?

Within the confines of the Mech Warrior World I'd say that anything that focuses on one range group is a cheese build. Why? Real mech builds from the TT game feature weapons that only work at long medium and short range.

Since all the hits are based on skill it's far better to have everything set for one range. As such I call that cheesy because you are a one trick pony. As such boating automatically qualifies as cheese. ECM also qualifies as cheese because it is without a doubt OP at the moment due to the fact that it is the only thing that can 100% counter itself (TAG and PPC effects are limited).

At the end of the day people play mechs that give them a better advantage to win because winning gives more than losing. This means the majority of mech chassis are completely useless and are only a stepping stone to master the one mech in the category that is worthwhile. It also means that you need to run cheese because everyone else is running cheese.

Right now I think the gold star cheese award has to go to the Raven 3L.

Edited by Glythe, 28 February 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Tunnel vision alert. The Bombardier, Rifleman, and Nova never existed. Boats are an invention of the Call of Doody generation kiddy gamer min/maxers.

[Ghogiel]

Vlad Ward, on 28 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Everything mentioned in the OP is just good Mechs being good.

Cheese is good.

[Deamhan]

ECM is just way too OP to not be cheese. Doesn't matter what it's on.

SRM6 provided you are boating 4 or more of them
(ER)PPC provided you are boating 4 or more of them
Gauss. Any more than one on a mech is more than there should be.
AC20 is the same as Gauss.

Streaks isn't really cheese. The deal with streaks is that it negates the fact that Lights benefit from sketchy hit boxes and screwy net code. If the light is under ECM, they are protected. Thus, pair ECM w/ Streak and now you can remove the other light's ECM and go to town on them with streaks. Being a light yourself, they can't run outside your 270m range. Put streaks on a Cat A1 and the light can just laugh as they use their speed to stay 270m away or use ECM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

TheForce, on 28 February 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

I'm sick of MinmaxWarrior/RobotJocks/WorldOfTanksWithLegs Online. Someday I hope it will be MechWarrior, or we will be able to setup private matches so the REAL MechWarriors can play together.

Edit: I forgot CheeseRobots Online - nice one stallin.

so what when they remove the mechlab - the thing all mechwarrior games have had mind you - then it'll be "real" mechwarrior?

[Psikez]

Ghogiel, on 28 February 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Cheese is good.