156 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Vlad Ward, on 28 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

So go make a bloody MWO league for yourself and like-minded players and go away.

MW4 is a terrible example of "balance" in video games.

So you agree MWO is bad ^.^

[Teralitha]

ciller, on 28 February 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I have done quite a few 8-mans and win a surprising few, we sometimes bring the cheese, we sometimes bring a very even loadout, we sometimes bring quirk or test builds. All of it requires skill if we want to win. Especially against Steel Jaguars, which is the only team we don't beat! They are skilled and quite good tacticians among a field of fairly competitive 8-mans (though somewhat small in size it seems at times).

If you are telling me the game takes no skill you are dead wrong. It takes tremendous skill to win consistently and teams like the Steel Jaguars and other elite 8-mans prove such on a daily basis. This is why you don't win much, not cheese builds.

As a side note sometimes weaker teams may run nothing but cheese to give them an extra edge. Skilled teams deal with this.

No, I am not saying the game takes no skill, Im saying that skill isnt the focus of this system, or if it is suppose to be, its not. Honestly, I believe ECM is the heart of the issue... Its allows cheese builds to become dominant. It has, and they are. It has dictated and limited the meta of 8man premades. Its a must have to be competitive in the meta. Maybe this is intended? If it is, I say its crap. Its ruining the mechwarrior experience, not enhancing it.

[EmeraldSongbird]

Ricotta 3L and Commuenster 2D are the only 2 ECM reliant cheese builds.

[ciller]

Teralitha, on 28 February 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

No, I am not saying the game takes no skill, Im saying that skill isnt the focus of this system, or if it is suppose to be, its not. Honestly, I believe ECM is the heart of the issue... Its allows cheese builds to become dominant. It has, and they are. It has dictated and limited the meta of 8man premades. Its a must have to be competitive in the meta. Maybe this is intended? If it is, I say its crap. Its ruining the mechwarrior experience, not enhancing it.

It is possible to win without cheese or ECM in 8-mans and still keep your win rate above 75%. Skill is a major factor in this as well as tactics, strategy, and teamwork. I can't make you believe me but that does not stop it from being true.

[Kobold]

ciller, on 28 February 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

It is possible to win without cheese or ECM in 8-mans and still keep your win rate above 75%.

That says a lot more about the wild variation in the skill levels of various teams in a small community than it does about anything else.

[Thurheim]

FYI. not all raven 3L's are cheese. I get very irked when people go off on my 3L. By canon, the 3L is the Stealth Raven. it is meant to be un seen by radar. My raven is a custom build that uses NO streaks. I generally get nice damage durring a match, because I DO use skill. I know when to back down, and when I can take a splat cat. I use special tactics with my team, when they choose listen, which usually proves fairly effective. For this, I am cursed and spat at, just because I run an ECM stealth/assualt raven.

[Darius Otsdarva]

I would have to agree with the large difference in skill levels between players. It does however make it daunting for new 8 man teams to swing into the queue, especially when they meet an experienced 8 man team running the expected ECM storm.

It can be beaten with a large amount of skill, but it does become increasingly difficult over time and not easily accessible.

[KnowBuddy]

You're all doing it wrong... boats aren't for cheese... they are for gravy.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

El Bandito, on 28 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Let cheesers cheese. Once the cheese is gone, they will be worse than everyone.

God I hope you are right, but as it stands right now, I have serious reservations.

Thurheim, on 28 February 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

FYI. not all raven 3L's are cheese. I get very irked when people go off on my 3L. By canon, the 3L is the Stealth Raven. it is meant to be un seen by radar. My raven is a custom build that uses NO streaks. I generally get nice damage durring a match, because I DO use skill. I know when to back down, and when I can take a splat cat. I use special tactics with my team, when they choose listen, which usually proves fairly effective. For this, I am cursed and spat at, just because I run an ECM stealth/assualt raven.

I for one think its a great move, and maybe setting you up for a better life in the long run on MWO. WIth some luck they may end this SSRM crap with ECM and we'll talk about this like we do small laser hunchies, MPL AWS, and SSRM cats.

[Elizander]

Teralitha, on 28 February 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Its about ECM, streaks, and cheese, and no knockdowns. (no I didnt say steak and cheese...)


The purity of the game is sullied by these things. Skill? doesnt matter... Tactics? very little...

I tried facing the wall and shooting it while piloting my A1 Splatcat. I still lost the game.

[0X2A]

Teralitha, on 28 February 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

LRMs have many hard counters. They are not cheese. You can... stand behind a rock, you can... get within 180 meters... you can wear AMS... There are no counters to real cheese, except... moar cheese.

I'll stand 500m away in my 2 LRM 20 stalker and see how many your AMS can shoot down. Also on most maps "getting within 180m" puts you into the LRM boats line of fire more than most people would like think.

[Teralitha]

Darius Otsdarva, on 28 February 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

I would have to agree with the large difference in skill levels between players. It does however make it daunting for new 8 man teams to swing into the queue, especially when they meet an experienced 8 man team running the expected ECM storm.

It can be beaten with a large amount of skill, but it does become increasingly difficult over time and not easily accessible.

Dont forget, unfun.

[Tuku]

You know Cheese has been part of every competition and war since the dawn of time....Well what people call cheese anyway. Consider this....during the American Revolution, the British where taken by surprise when the dishonorable Americans would not line up to be shot like toy soldiers instead opting to hide behind a hill or a tree while they reloaded.

Yes yes I know that is the real world not a video game but there are more words to be had here.

World of Warcraft- Rouge or whatever the revolving nerf bat has made flavor of the month this month

EVE Online - used to be large supercap fleets...not sure what it is now

Starcraft 2 - Im new to this game but so far as I can tell there is a protos strategy and build order that can decimate those who aren't ready for it.

I'm sure that there are other games with other commonly employed "Cheese" builds or strategies witch players of each of those games will ***** and complain about even though they are perfectly legal within the rules of the world(Game). In a war with no intel you have to be ready for any complication and able to exploit the weakness of your enemy. If you come up against 8 Splatcats and you are in a fairly balanced team then use that to your advantage....they have no ECM so your LRM support becomes priority to protect....They will charge in mass and focus targets hard so make sure your scouts are giving you constant location information and are pulling some off their main group. Above all else putting an atlas or stalker in front of them to eat while the rest come up from the rear will net you at least 3 kills.....break off when the atlas gets away and come in from another angle....Attack with medium lasers and bigger from 3-500 m minimum and their SRMs are useless, your brawlers are only there to fight them when they get to close....otherwise they just provide ECM or and moral support.


It would be a difficult fight but tactics win games....not builds.

The British almost defeated the American's

Rouges could still be destroyed

Super capitols could be brought down with enough subcaps

this protos strat is not full proof.,


TLDR : If you spent as much time thinking about the weakness of each of your enemies builds as you did crying about it on the forums you may not have so much of a problem with it.

[Fooooo]

Teralitha, on 28 February 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Dont forget, unfun.

If you don't find overcoming a challenge as fun, then you may as well stop almost everything you do.

[p00k]

there will always be cheese builds, because there will always be builds that are better, and those builds will inevitably become commonplace once people realize they're better. then scrubs complain that a build is cheesy because, well, it's better than their build. and apparently it's not "fair" to take a build that's better than the scrub's build

Ghogiel, on 28 February 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Are you implying that cheese is in fact not the goodest of the goods?

why would anyone ever play a build that isn't the goodest of the goods? 3 reasons.
1) you can't afford it yet. remedied in time with grinding
2) you're grinding the inferior variants to get pilot skills. remedied in time
3) you value <something else> greater than winning as much as possible for your skill level. in which case, don't complain when you don't win as much as possible

[Jestun]

JimSuperBleeder, on 28 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

What is skill?

In this context? The ability to manage less than 10 buttons and wiggle the mouse.

Some people like to big up the difficulty though to feel like they have achieved more.

[TOPGUN Stinger]

JimSuperBleeder, on 28 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

What is skill?

What is skill you ask...

[MustrumRidcully]

I still think it's about skill. But there is also a lot cheese around. And despite the ongoing myth that skilled players don't use cheese... It's still a myth. A skilled player can very well use a cheese build. He quite possibly figured the build out himself, in his ever-going attempt to achieve the perfect build for a perfect play style. Some skilled players decide it's a bit too lame, but not everyone does.

[Galathon Redd]

Teralitha, on 28 February 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Its about ECM, streaks, and cheese, and no knockdowns. (no I didnt say steak and cheese...)


The purity of the game is sullied by these things. Skill? doesnt matter... Tactics? very little...

Thank you for raising a very good point that clearly nobody ever talks about on the forums. It's completely original, a wholly new concept that most assuredly requires further discussion.


Ironic... how'd that picture of a troll and an a$$ get in there?

Edited by Galathon Redd, 01 March 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[Pat Kell]

There is no system that i am aware that connot be twisted into a system that has high powered units and then all the rest. My point is that you can sit and whine about this stuff all day long but there is nothing they can really do about it. Sure, nerf or remove ecm but then what, lrm's are op or streaks return to being op. Bright young enterprising people will always try to find the one setup that will give them an edge over other people.

Simple fact, there is nothing currently on the battlefield that dominates everything else. Everything has a counter and yes skill and or experience helps you to see the counters before its too late. I'm not saying that things are perfectly balanced as that would obviously contradict my previous statement but it is getting better.

And if your having problems dealing with ecm when you know that almost every match will consist of 1 enemy mech carrying it then you are not adapting. the problem here isn't ecm, the problem is people who refuse to accept that ecm exists dispite all evidence to the contrary. Its here, and probably here to stay so if you want to have any fun at all while playing, you had better learn how to adapt to the situation.

And no that doesn't mean just bring more ecm although that is 1 solution, tag and lrm's are another, ppc's paired with other ballistic weapons, lasers, all of these things are not blocked by ecm.funny thing is, I was using all of these things before ecm...cept for tag....hmmm