198 replies to this topic

[Inyc]

Specifically for brawlers (so forget LRMs), SRM6s are tied for 2nd place with Gauss as highest damage-per-hardpoint of any weapon. Only the AC/20 is higher. Of those three weapons, only the SRM6 can be equipped more than twice in a mech.

1 Artemis SRM6: 15 damage for 3 slots, 4 tons.
3 Medium Lasers: 15 damage for 3 slots, 3 tons.

Lets say ammo = heatsinks

Most missile hardpoints on a mech chassis is 6.

How many mechs get 18 energy hard points? Or even 9 they can stuff with Large Lasers? None. Forget about Ballistics too, since the most Ballistics hardpoints on a Mech is 4, and none of those chassis can get 4 Gauss or AC/20. Or even AC/10.

The result is anyone who wants a brawler needs a mech with as many missile slots for SRM6s as possible. Which obviously results in the Splatapult and those other mechs and chassis with 4 missile hardpoints (four Stalkers, one Awesone and one Catapult). This also trickles down into the 3 Missile hard-point chassis being best brawlers for that mech in most cases. Anyone trying to brawl with less because fodder for those that do.

I imagine dropping the damage to give SRM6s a more reasonable damage-per-hardpoint ratio would be a good plan (something like 12, down from 15), but because they are balanced as far as damage-per-tons and damage-per-slots goes, they'd need a counter buff of some kind. Possibly ammo-per-tons or cooldown. Or both.

Edited by Inyc, 28 February 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Too good for their weight investment, I'd say. All the hard points in the world don't help you if you cannot carry the weapon, the ammo and the heat sinks needed for it.

[Brilig]

Rather than reducing the damage I would increase their spread up close, or maybe hamper their convergence a little. Single units seem pretty well balanced. Its when you have 3 SRM6 all firing out of the same tubes at the same point that the damage seems crazy.

[Inyc]

MustrumRidcully, on 28 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Too good for their weight investment, I'd say. All the hard points in the world don't help you if you cannot carry the weapon, the ammo and the heat sinks needed for it.

They are the same damage per weight as Medium lasers. Worst damage per slot as well. But as I posted, the issue is that you don't get triple the energy hardpoints of missile heavy chassis.

Brilig, on 28 February 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Rather than reducing the damage I would increase their spread up close, or maybe hamper their convergence a little. Single units seem pretty well balanced. Its when you have 3 SRM6 all firing out of the same tubes at the same point that the damage seems crazy.

Increasing the spread doesn't take away the one-shots from how SRMs are majorly used. I've used them on a lot of mechs, more spread means nothing to me because I very rarely fire them at a time when my screen isn't filled with my victim's metallic ***.

[Kobold]

Brilig, on 28 February 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Rather than reducing the damage I would increase their spread up close, or maybe hamper their convergence a little. Single units seem pretty well balanced. Its when you have 3 SRM6 all firing out of the same tubes at the same point that the damage seems crazy.

I vote the exact opposite. Give them less damage, but also a tighter grouping at range. This gives a lower alpha weapon, but it will retain usefulness.

[Ohari]

I dont know how I feel about this. On one hand I understand why people are annoyed, thats a lot of firepower to "splat" against a target in one volley. On the other had this is where good piloting comes into play... what I mean by that is analyzing your target before engaging...seeing it as a splatcat and realizing your best bet is to keep your distance to over 270m for that particular target....and where to target as well.

[Cest7]

Thats like saying the LRM-20 is too good for snipers...

[Kobold]

Ohari, it isn't just the A1. Any mech that you intend to brawl with, should first fill all missile slots with SRMs. Only after that do you check your remaining tonnage and see what else you can carry.

Prior to the introduction of the Trebuchet, nearly every medium in the Run Hot or Die league was a CN9-A with 3x6.

[Inyc]

Ohari, on 01 March 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

I dont know how I feel about this. On one hand I understand why people are annoyed, thats a lot of firepower to "splat" against a target in one volley. On the other had this is where good piloting comes into play... what I mean by that is analyzing your target before engaging...seeing it as a splatcat and realizing your best bet is to keep your distance to over 270m for that particular target....and where to target as well.

That's called playing with a handicap. As in, anyone that brawls in something other than a Splatcat or Stalker is handicapping themselves. Are you OK with this? Seems to me like it really cuts down on mech variety.

[Aim64C]

I would just like to point out that in tabletop, SRMs do 2 points of damage per missile. Yet armor is only worth 16 points per ton (half of MWO).

By that, and that alone, all missiles are technically nerfed in comparison to tabletop varieties.

Plenty of brawlers out there do just fine without SRMs or with only a nominal addition of them.

Hell - I've done over 200 points of damage with 2 medium lasers in a catapult with torso-mounted lasers (it was an ECM **** fest against our team). And I'm not all that great with lasers. I'm just relatively decent at being somewhat difficult to kill. ... When I'm not doing something ********, that is.

So, I really don't have much in the way of sympathy for these crowds who like to say that SRMs are some kind of god weapon. I don't have that much of a problem with them, and other players do just fine, as well.

[Inyc]

Cest7, on 01 March 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Thats like saying the LRM-20 is too good for snipers...

Negative. Slot and weight size come into play against the LRM-20. No chassis can have more than 4 equipped period. And even the ones that can do that can't do it efficiently. There are also available counters for none LRM range.

There is no counter to the power of SRM6 for non SRM6 brawlers.

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

I would just like to point out that in tabletop, SRMs do 2 points of damage per missile. Yet armor is only worth 16 points per ton (half of MWO).

By that, and that alone, all missiles are technically nerfed in comparison to tabletop varieties.

But can you, in table top, stick your SRM mech right next to the back armor of a mech and ensure that every single of those 36 SRMs will hit the very same component? Or even half?

[Elizander]

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

So, I really don't have much in the way of sympathy for these crowds who like to say that SRMs are some kind of god weapon. I don't have that much of a problem with them, and other players do just fine, as well.

You'll have to tune out a lot of weapon balance noise from the forums these days. If you read all the threads, everyone hates all the weapons or hates anything that can carry more than 1 of the same thing.

Just rub out that last bit of lagshield from the netcode and I really won't care what the enemy brings.

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

But can you, in table top, stick your SRM mech right next to the back armor of a mech and ensure that every single of those 36 SRMs will hit the very same component? Or even half?

It's a slightly moot argument considering we can aim weapons to hit whatever part we want in MWO (except LRMS probably). The same argument would go for 12 medium lasers or 4 ER PPCs. It's not just for SRMs.

Edited by Elizander, 01 March 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[Aim64C]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

That's called playing with a handicap. As in, anyone that brawls in something other than a Splatcat or Stalker is handicapping themselves. Are you OK with this? Seems to me like it really cuts down on mech variety.

I've seen plenty of 'mechs brawl effectively against everything - including splatcats and splatstalks. I've seen lights swarm them to death. I've seen Atlases stomp right through them.

Occasionally, our team will have some sense of cohesion and a splatcat that looks like it's behaving competently will be brought down from range.

Honestly, I can't tell you how many times I've been in spectator mode and a good portion of my team has half of their slots red because their SRMs are depleted of ammo. Then, players with laser builds chew them up in the final minutes (or a few who have better management of their ballistic trigger finger).

[Inyc]

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

Hell - I've done over 200 points of damage with 2 medium lasers in a catapult with torso-mounted lasers (it was an ECM **** fest against our team). And I'm not all that great with lasers. I'm just relatively decent at being somewhat difficult to kill. ... When I'm not doing something ********, that is.

In the minimum amount of time it took you to deal 200 damage with 2 medium lasers, you could have dealt 450 with 2 SRM6s.

[Royalewithcheese]

Elizander, on 01 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

You'll have to tune out a lot of weapon balance noise from the forums these days. If you read all the threads, everyone hates all the weapons or hates anything that can carry more than 1 of the same thing.

And it's a different thing every day Yesterday it was lurms. Before that it was ECM for a while

(Also, the forums are gonna be hilarious after 2xAC20 XL Engine Jagermechs start rolling out haha)

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 01 March 2013 - 12:18 AM.

[Inyc]

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

I've seen plenty of 'mechs brawl effectively against everything - including splatcats and splatstalks. I've seen lights swarm them to death. I've seen Atlases stomp right through them.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't change that it is a mathematical handicap.

Elizander, on 01 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

It's a slightly moot argument considering we can aim weapons to hit whatever part we want in MWO (except LRMS probably). The same argument would go for 12 medium lasers or 4 ER PPCs. It's not just for SRMs.

But see, my point is that you CANNOT make the same argument with 12 medium lasers because you CANNOT make a mech with 12 medium lasers to break even with 4 SRM6s. Let alone the 18 required to break even with 6 SRM6s.

And that is because SRM6s are so good per hard-point. If hard-point limits did not exist, then yes you are right. You could boat up Med Lasers and wreck SRMs. But its not the case.

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

(Also, the forums are gonna be hilarious after 2xAC20 XL Engine Jagermechs start rolling out haha)

We already have a mech that can do this...

[Elizander]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

And it's a different thing every day Yesterday it was lurms. Before that it was ECM for a while

(Also, the forums are gonna be hilarious after 2xAC20 XL Engine Jagermechs start rolling out haha)

Yeah, we're in that "It killed me, I don't use it, so it's OP" phase I guess.

[Royalewithcheese]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

We already have a mech that can do this...

A mech that can carry 2xAC20? Not at 80 KPH we don't. Yet.

...I'm gonna have so much fun with my Jagermech

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 01 March 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[Voidsinger]

You decided on a criteria specifically to exclude LRMs, brawlers. That alone has made your points rather useless, and makes it appear you are an LRM user.

Next, you have failed to note weight per launcher, number of shots per ton, or heat per ton.

You have failed to note that we are talking about maximum possible damage under optimum conditions, not shots fired in combat speeds, often on the turn where drift and spread drastically reduce performance. same applies for lasers though with beam spread. You also failed to include larger lasers and PPCs for some reason.

If you had looked at this realistically, the conclusion is the most effective weapon across all brawling ranges is the sSRM. This is proveded you can operate them in the ECM environment (and if you can sneak a Splatcat in close, you have the ECM to get Streaks going. 5 damage on a 1.5 ton launcher, with 50 shots per ton, 2 heat and only fires when guaranteed 100% accuracy.

Your premise was flawed from the start.

[Inyc]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

A mech that can carry 2xAC20? Not at 80 KPH we don't. Yet.

...I'm gonna have so much fun with my Jagermech

You can make a ****** K2 build that'd go 70 with 2 AC/20s.

And thats not much different from 4 PPC cat/awesomes / stalkers.

And again, you can clearly see the simple balance of damage-to-slots and damage to weight and damage per potential hardpoint. The only real outlier in SRM6s is damage-to-hardpoints.

Imagine if you could slap an AC/20 in every Ballistic slot any mech had. Could you handle a quad AC/20 Cicada?