198 replies to this topic

[Inyc]

Pando, on 01 March 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Try running crap tons of SRM6 in 8's against a sniper team. See how "OP" they are then ;P

Try running any brawler build in 8's against a sniper team. Same result, SRM6 stacking is still better than stacking other things for brawling. Your argument isn't an argument at all.

Flying Blind, on 01 March 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

SRMs have always been the best damage per ton in this game no matter what incarnation. they have also always been one of the more difficult weapons to land on target consistently. this is all true still here in MWO. SRMs are working as intended and as they should be.

The issue is not that they are the best brawling weapon, it is how much better than any other weapon they are. To the point where they are required for a brawler to be successful

Lightfoot, on 01 March 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

@OP
I think you are confusing the never rebalanced hardpoints of the CPLT-A1 with a need to rebalance the SRM6.

While the A1 embodies and exacerbates the issue, the SRM6 is still by far and beyond the best brawling weapon available to any mech.

[Inyc]

liku, on 01 March 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

too bad... every mechs can sports them... it's op let's remove them from the game.. or at least give them a max range of 90 meter and minimum of 45 meter.

Not every mech has a missile hardpoint. And very few of the chassis have 4 or 6 missile hardpoints I think 7 out of 61 chassis.

The issue here is the thought process of a player making his build. When he looks at energy hardpoints, he will balance many factors. Same with Ballistics or LRMs. When it comes to SRMs, there is no question. There is SRM6 and nothing else. No mech outside the light class is going to have crit slot or weight issues because of SRM6s like they will with ballistics or LRMs. No mech will have heat usage issues with SRM6s like they will with energy weapons going from Med lasers to Large Pulse.

The only question is "Can I kinda aim? SRM6. Am I unable to aim and do I pack ECM? SSRM2". This reduces build variety for mechs wanting to use their missile hardpoints for brawling and reduces viablity for anyone wanting to brawl on chassis without.

[Khobai]

I agree that SRM6s are too good per hardpoint. I feel they need their damage lowered and their range increased.

[Corvus Antaka]

imho heat would be the best way to balance the SRM group

[Raso]

I do agree that, right now, the SRM6s are the kinds of their weight class but I don't know if I'd call them OP yet. Remember you still need to be able to carry ammo and heat-sinks for them.

I think the problem we see is that it's easy to load up a pair of SRM6s and the needed ammo and heatsinks on a small mech and deal heavy damage to an enemy but it's harder to boat lasers or ballistics in such quantities and have such sustained fire on other mechs. For example on a Hunchback 4P with all medium lasers you're not going to alpha strike very often and you MUST sacrifice some lasers or speed for more sustained fire power. At the same time 3 SRMs are not very load out intensive on a Centurion or Commando and you can often fit them along side at least a few medium lasers.

So the question is this. If there were a variant of the Catapult (because it's always the fracking catapult) that could boat, like, 12 medium lasers across it's body would we complain that make medium lasers are OP? Would loading all of the heatsinks and removing all of the armor and cutting the engine size be enough to make in a build that's not viable?

The ease at which you can field and operate the larger SRMs does bring into question some balance issues but so does the way MWO handles mech loadouts. Personally I'm at a loss of how to fix it (if it even is in need of being fixed) but those are my thoughts.

On a side note I'd like to point out that the Catapult has been the center of almost every weapon called OP in the game. The Gauss, SRM6s, LRMs, AC20s the dreaded flamer debacle of 3014 (that last one never happened actually), it's all because of that blasted chassis! We'd never know how creative some pilots aren't or how effective certain weapons are with out the Catapult. I just wanted to give it the credit it's due.

[Tesunie]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

While the A1 embodies and exacerbates the issue, the SRM6 is still by far and beyond the best brawling weapon available to any mech.

I'd like to agree to disagree on this one. My 6 med lasers on my Stalker will surgically remove your arms, and if I'm lucky your cockpit. I've fought SRM cats in my LRM stalker. If I can, I pelt LRMs as they approach. If they get closer, they won't be the first target I've melted to slag with pin point laser fire. I've won many fights in my non brawler Stalker against the SRMcat. They leave me hurting and beaten as they should, but I can and do win against them.

Yes, SRMs are powerful, but they produce heat and need ammo. But they are not a necessary weapon to win in a brawl. My Dragon doesn't have SRMs and does alright. My cent has an ERPPC and 2 SRM 4s and it works fine, though I could have done lasers as well. SRMs ran cooler and I don't need much of them, so that is why I used them there. Not because they are best at brawling for my brawling build. Notice that my cent isn't a brawler.

[Inyc]

Raso, on 01 March 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

So the question is this. If there were a variant of the Catapult (because it's always the fracking catapult) that could boat, like, 12 medium lasers across it's body would we complain that make medium lasers are OP?

You'd actually need 18 Medium laser hard points to equate the current 6 SRM6. We're not even close to that. 12 equals the 4 SRM6 builds, again, not even close. The best we have is the Hunchy that can sport 9 ML to equate to 3 SRM6.

[Royalewithcheese]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

You'd actually need 18 Medium laser hard points to equate the current 6 SRM6. We're not even close to that. 12 equals the 4 SRM6 builds, again, not even close. The best we have is the Hunchy that can sport 9 ML to equate to 3 SRM6.

What is with the forums and the assumption that all SRMs in a blast hit the same area and/or hit at all?

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 01 March 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Inyc]

Tesunie, on 01 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yes, SRMs are powerful, but they produce heat

Why does everyone keep saying that? As far as I can tell, SRM6 is right up there in the games best Damage to heat ratio. 15 damage for 4 heat, or 3,75 damage-per-heat. This is far better than any of the energy weapons. It beats out the AC/10 and AC/20. It's better than the other SRMs. Pretty much only the LRMs, Gauss and AC5s do better.

[Uncl Munkeh]

Inyc, on 28 February 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

I imagine dropping the damage to give SRM6s a more reasonable damage-per-hardpoint ratio would be a good plan (something like 12, down from 15), but because they are balanced as far as damage-per-tons and damage-per-slots goes, they'd need a counter buff of some kind. Possibly ammo-per-tons or cooldown. Or both.

Why don't you just stay out of range of the SRM6s?

[Inyc]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

What is with the forums and the assumption that all SRMs in a blast hit the same area and/or hit at all?

But I do. And so does everyone else. Why do you think they're so popular? If they were unreliable, they wouldn't be.

Thontor, on 01 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

You can't compare the damage of hit scan, focused damage weapons with travel time, spread damage weapons like that.

But you can. Lasers aren't hitscan because you need to hold them on target. If you move slightly you spread the damage around components (just like SRM at halfish range) and if you move a lot you throw some of the damage off target completely (just like SRMs at longer range). A good player will reliably get grouped SRM hits just like a good player will reliably hold his lasers on a component for most of its duration.

[Johnny Morgan]

Kommisar, on 01 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

For the record, every mech variant has a set number of "tubes" for any given missile hardpoint. You can mount more "launcher" in that hardpoint, but they will all have to exit out of the tubes.

For example, if you mount (and I have) an LRM15 in the left arm of an Awesome 9M (with has 1 missile hardpoint with 2 tubes for a default Streak launcher), you will have 15 missiles fired 2 at a time until they are all out. That is 7 rapid launches of 2 missiles with 1 last missile at the end.

Same with every mech. This is the advantage of the Catapults. They have big launchers with a lot of tubes. It is the reason the Treb is a better missile boater than the Cent; more tubes.

I didn't realize this applied to all launchers, I thought it was just the NARC tube that did it.... hmmm doesn't seem broken to me if a mech have 2 hard points with 6 tubes being able to fire 12 SRMs in one volley (i,e Hunchback 4SP).

thanks man!

[Trauglodyte]

Missile damage as a whole needs to be adjusted. The argument of more damage when armor doubled doesn't hold water when every other weapon in game maintains its TT levels (minus the Lrg Laser and Lrg Pulse Laser - I don't undestand those either). People say that the spread nature of the weapon is why it needs a damage boost but all the LB 10-X has gotten is a crit boost which, as we all know, is a decent idea on paper but a terrible idea in usage.

Furthermore, one of the biggest issues with missiles is, and we're taking the A1 as an example, is that the stock model has 6 missile points but only has 15 missile tubes per arm. You can pack in 18 SRMs per side but you can fire all 18 without issue because the game recognizes that you've got 6 missiles per weapon and 15 tubes so there is no delay. It would be helpful if it forced you to utlimately ripple fire 3 groups of 6. Afterall, if you're going to pull the weapons out, the tubes should come along with it.

[Royalewithcheese]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

But I do. And so does everyone else. Why do you think they're so popular? If they were unreliable, they wouldn't be.

Next time you're playing a mech with SRMs, glance up at the damage readout for your enemy when you blast it. In ideal conditions (facehug or sweetspot), many of the SRMs will hit the area you're aiming for (how many depends on the size of the hitbox.) Others will hit other parts of the enemy mech. I dunno about you, but I don't usually care all that much about some light armor damage on a mech's arm or leg when I'n trying to core it. In non-ideal conditions, some of your SRMs will miss entirely and the damage will be very spread out. Don't get me wrong, they're an amazing weapon (and would still be if they did TT damage), but they simply don't do the damage forum theorycrafters think they do.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 01 March 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 01 March 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

I agree that SRM6s are too good per hardpoint. I feel they need their damage lowered and their range increased.

I don't understand what you are saying here. That hard point can have an SRM6 or an LRM20. Ant missile launcher can go there. so why would the 6 be to powerful.good.

Thanks for you answer in advance.

[Tesunie]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Why does everyone keep saying that? As far as I can tell, SRM6 is right up there in the games best Damage to heat ratio. 15 damage for 4 heat, or 3,75 damage-per-heat. This is far better than any of the energy weapons. It beats out the AC/10 and AC/20. It's better than the other SRMs. Pretty much only the LRMs, Gauss and AC5s do better.

And ammo. You forgot that part. The extra tons for ammo and needed heat sinks help balance it out, And on top of that the missiles spread so most of the time not all missiles are hitting, or hitting the same place. They are rarely concentrated.

Lasers on the other hand do produce more heat, but do more focused damage and does not rely on ammo, so the tons used on SRM ammo gets shifted to heat sinks.

You are arguing a spread weapon over a pin point weapon. It's like asking which is better for surgery, a scalpel or a bone saw?

[Inyc]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Next time you're playing a mech with SRMs, glance up at the damage readout for your enemy when you blast it. In ideal conditions (facehug or sweetspot), many of the SRMs will hit the area you're aiming for (how many depends on the size of the hitbox.) Others will hit other parts of the enemy mech. I dunno about you, but I don't overly care about some light armor damage on a mech's arm or leg when I'n trying to core it.

Only two out of 6 missiles launched from your SRM6 need to impact to equate the damage of a perfectly pinpointed Medium Laser.

Johnny Morgan, on 01 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

I didn't realize this applied to all launchers, I thought it was just the NARC tube that did it.... hmmm doesn't seem broken to me if a mech have 2 hard points with 6 tubes being able to fire 12 SRMs in one volley (i,e Hunchback 4SP).

Its kinda broken on mechs with multiple missile hardpoints per launcher. Like the CN9-A who can launch 3 LRM10s simultaneously from his side torso but will launch 1 LRM20 in two volleys. Or the Catapult A-1 who can launch 45 missiles in a volley per ear with 3 LRM15s, but will shoot 1 LRM 20 in two volleys.

[Royalewithcheese]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Only two out of 6 missiles launched from your SRM6 need to impact to equate the damage of a perfectly pinpointed Medium Laser.

Okay, and what's the damage/heat trade-off on those two SRMs out of the six I fired? What's the alpha and/or DPS?

[PropagandaWar]

All this because of the SplatCat. All this because of the Streak Cat. LMAO. I get caught by these guys, too I really do. If I see them in my med mechs I run the other way about 150 meters then I turn around and shoot. If I dont I usally die in a single shot. I'm sorry but smaller quantities of srm6's (we'll say two because thats what I use non artemis) aren't the great and powerful weapon. You guys that seem to be getting caught all the time (Im thinking PPC Moo Moo Boats who missed their shot, or some pathetic raven who's lag shield faltered for a miunte). Brining Artemis is into the picture is stupid. Those who wield it pay the price for it in slots and weight to get tighter groupings. Yeah the Splats a pain in the ***, but a standard srm 6 has quite the spread, heat and ammo consupmption galore, along with a firing delay and haveing to lead your shots prope. As soon as more systems come into play it'll be even less so, and I'm sure there will be something else to complain about.

[Vocis]

All missiles are too good and need to be nerfed.

Their damage per ton is just obscene.