198 replies to this topic

[Inyc]

Tesunie, on 01 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

And ammo. You forgot that part. The extra tons for ammo and needed heat sinks help balance it out,

Forget heatsinks. Any cooling you need for your SRM6 you need in spades for everything else. the 3 MLs you need to break even with the SRM6 generate 12 heat per shot to the 4 of the SRM. Thats triple the heat per shot. Adding 1 SHS per ML is going to keep you firing. Thats the same as adding 1 ton of ammo to your SRM.

And for ammo 1 ton of SRM ammo is a potential 250 damage. That seems like a pretty solid investment. To compare, AC ammo comes out to 150 damage per ton for perfect accuracy. So you can fudge 2/5th missile per volley and you're breaking even with an AC user with perfect accuracy.

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

"srm6 are too good per hardpoint"

NOPE

they're pretty useless in the awesome 8t

if any of you is making this claim please buy an awesome 8t just so you can prove me wrong, please.

assault mech with 2 missile hardpoint and srm6 is a joke, waay more damage if swapped to LRM.

srm6 start becoming effective for a large mech at 3

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 March 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Inyc]

Vocis, on 01 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

All missiles are too good and need to be nerfed.

Their damage per ton is just obscene.

I'd say LRMs are in a good place. They have many in-game counters, and they are very hard countered by terrain. Sure if you get caught out in the open, LRMs will wreck you... but isn't any long range going to wreck you if you're caught out in the open with no cover close?

I would say the only "nerf" needed to LRMs is to fix the wonky tubes vs hardpoint issue. If you really limit the number of missiles fired in a volley to the max number of tubes on your mech, then you have a pretty good organic nerf there. And most people won't even notice since everyone I see already runs LRM20s and 15s in 6 tube launchers for some reason.

Mazzyplz, on 01 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

NOPE

they're pretty useless in the awesome 8t

if any of you is making this claim please buy an awesome 8t just so you can prove me wrong, please.

assault mech with 2 missile hardpoint and srm6 is a joke, waay more damage if swapped to LRM.

srm6 start becoming effective for a large mech at 3

SRM and LRM don't have the same roles at all. And if you are trying to make a balanced mech with a good mix of long range and short range, then you are better off using long range lasers and SRMs for close range than LRMs and med or LLs for close range.

[Skunk Wolf]

xRatas, on 01 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

I take it you do not play the TT?

Two things to google:
-"Number of missiles hit" -table
-"Hit locations" -table

SRM are a god weapon when compared to TT.

edit to help the newbie out: TT does not calculate range in any way when comparing how many missiles will hit, or where they hit. So to match TT, all missiles should really come out from launcher in huge spread already.

I've been saying that for a while. Nobody seems to listen.

[Mazzyplz]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

SRM and LRM don't have the same roles at all. And if you are trying to make a balanced mech with a good mix of long range and short range, then you are better off using long range lasers and SRMs for close range than LRMs and med or LLs for close range.

doesn't matter, pick up the 8t.
srm is bad on it pretty much no matter the build, the sheer increase of damage is enough to make lrm preferable in almost any situation (unless you refuse to play LRM by personal choice)

you don't have to do indirect fire, just use them for 200+ range with LOS, it is still better per hardpoint than SRM

you won't be able to understand what i say correctly until you play the 8t, if you haven't then don't comment on this statement until you do

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 March 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Vocis]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'd say LRMs are in a good place. They have many in-game counters, and they are very hard countered by terrain. Sure if you get caught out in the open, LRMs will wreck you... but isn't any long range going to wreck you if you're caught out in the open with no cover close?

I would say the only "nerf" needed to LRMs is to fix the wonky tubes vs hardpoint issue. If you really limit the number of missiles fired in a volley to the max number of tubes on your mech, then you have a pretty good organic nerf there. And most people won't even notice since everyone I see already runs LRM20s and 15s in 6 tube launchers for some reason.



SRM and LRM don't have the same roles at all. And if you are trying to make a balanced mech with a good mix of long range and short range, then you are better off using long range lasers and SRMs for close range than LRMs and med or LLs for close range.

No, LRMs are even more overpowered.

There is one map, Frozen City, where LRMs aren't overpowered.

It just took a while for people to realize that they can't brawl with LRMs, now that people realized that LRMs are dominating every map.

LRMs need to go back to 1.0 Damage/Tube instead of 1.8 Damage/Tube

Edited by Vocis, 01 March 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Vocis, on 01 March 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

No, LRMs are even more overpowered.

There is one map, Frozen City, where LRMs aren't overpowered.

It just took a while for people to realize that they can't brawl with LRMs, now that people realized that LRMs are dominating every map.

LRMs need to go back to 1.0 Damage/Tube instead of 1.8 Damage/Tube

Hills hard counter LRMs. Hills are OP, nerf hills.

[PropagandaWar]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Forget heatsinks. Any cooling you need for your SRM6 you need in spades for everything else. the 3 MLs you need to break even with the SRM6 generate 12 heat per shot to the 4 of the SRM. Thats triple the heat per shot. Adding 1 SHS per ML is going to keep you firing. Thats the same as adding 1 ton of ammo to your SRM.

And for ammo 1 ton of SRM ammo is a potential 250 damage. That seems like a pretty solid investment. To compare, AC ammo comes out to 150 damage per ton for perfect accuracy. So you can fudge 2/5th missile per volley and you're breaking even with an AC user with perfect accuracy.

Thats true. But what happens when Clan Dual HS come out? Lasers will be boated in droves.

Compairing SRM ammo to Balistics doesn't work to well unless its LBX beings a standard SRM6 usually doesn't connect with its full volley and even more rarely does it connect in one location.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 01 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Inyc]

Mazzyplz, on 01 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

doesn't matter, pick up the 8t.
srm is bad on it pretty much no matter the build, the sheer increase of damage is enough to make lrm preferable in almost any situation (unless you refuse to play LRM by personal choice)

you don't have to do indirect fire, just use them for 200+ range with LOS, it is still better per hardpoint than SRM

But I have the 8T... and when I want to brawl with it, I don't give it LRMs, I give it SRMS I do use LRMs when I want to be a long range fire support obviously. It all depends on the role you want to fill. Thats why I said SRMs and LRM aren't really comparable, you don't use them the same way at all.

[Vocis]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Hills hard counter LRMs. Hills are OP, nerf hills.

Great plan, except in case you haven't notice the amount of cover in maps is dropping rapidly. And all maps have large open areas you can force fights in.

Just because the people in your bracket are stupid enough not to realize this doesn't mean they are in all brackets.

[Grizley]

Inyc, on 28 February 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Specifically for brawlers (so forget LRMs), SRM6s are tied for 2nd place with Gauss as highest damage-per-hardpoint of any weapon. Only the AC/20 is higher. Of those three weapons, only the SRM6 can be equipped more than twice in a mech.

1 Artemis SRM6: 15 damage for 3 slots, 4 tons.
3 Medium Lasers: 15 damage for 3 slots, 3 tons.

Lets say ammo = heatsinks

Most missile hardpoints on a mech chassis is 6.

How many mechs get 18 energy hard points? Or even 9 they can stuff with Large Lasers? None. Forget about Ballistics too, since the most Ballistics hardpoints on a Mech is 4, and none of those chassis can get 4 Gauss or AC/20. Or even AC/10.

The result is anyone who wants a brawler needs a mech with as many missile slots for SRM6s as possible. Which obviously results in the Splatapult and those other mechs and chassis with 4 missile hardpoints (four Stalkers, one Awesone and one Catapult). This also trickles down into the 3 Missile hard-point chassis being best brawlers for that mech in most cases. Anyone trying to brawl with less because fodder for those that do.

I imagine dropping the damage to give SRM6s a more reasonable damage-per-hardpoint ratio would be a good plan (something like 12, down from 15), but because they are balanced as far as damage-per-tons and damage-per-slots goes, they'd need a counter buff of some kind. Possibly ammo-per-tons or cooldown. Or both.

You can put 3xGauss on an Ilya. It's not really as good as some other options but it can be done.

That said, dropping SRMS down to their TT values of 2 damage a missile from 2.5 is a good plan. If necessary increase ammo by 25% or something to account for the doubled armor.

[Inyc]

Vocis, on 01 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Great plan, except in case you haven't notice the amount of cover in maps is dropping rapidly. And all maps have large open areas you can force fights in.

How? By standing out in the open? Also if you read my sugesstion, making missile fire limited by tubes is a pretty good nerf. It means you get more time to avoid the LRMs if they come in 2 or 3 volleys instead of 1.

[Mazzyplz]

to better illustrate what i am saying for those who haven't played 8T and are under the impression SRM are too good per hardpoint:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...55725a87d5febc9
this is with 2 srm6, firepower 30 - you can put the same 2xsrm6 on a light mech, ok? except this is not a light mech but an assault


now let's switch it for LRM20,
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a3d9b9c9f8581fc
72 firepower. with the added damage from any lasers (i didn't include any) the difference is clear
i don't think you can fit these on a light mech.



how about LRM15?
54 firepower
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...08ac7be0db15925
maybe you could boat these on a trebuchet, at least it's not as pathetic as 2xsrm6 that you can do on your commando or hunchie


proof that srm6 is not too good per hardpoint, to the contrary, sometimes it sucks

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

But I have the 8T... and when I want to brawl with it, I don't give it LRMs, I give it SRMS I do use LRMs when I want to be a long range fire support obviously. It all depends on the role you want to fill. Thats why I said SRMs and LRM aren't really comparable, you don't use them the same way at all.

yeah you can use them if you want to shoot short range, that doesn't make them any good.
srm6 on 2 missile hardpoint with it is comparable to what a light/medium can do - for the 8T assault mech it is horrible. objectively speaking (if we compare)
if you swap for LRM you get the real firepower an assault should have, damage wise

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Vocis]

"Firepower" is a meaningless metric.

[Royalewithcheese]

Vocis, on 01 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Great plan, except in case you haven't notice the amount of cover in maps is dropping rapidly. And all maps have large open areas you can force fights in.

Just because the people in your bracket are stupid enough not to realize this doesn't mean they are in all brackets.

A lurmboat that tries to force fights in open areas in a good bracket (or even a bad bracket) will learn why sitting out in the open is a Very Bad Idea against pretty much anything with long-range capability.

[Tesunie]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Forget heatsinks. Any cooling you need for your SRM6 you need in spades for everything else. the 3 MLs you need to break even with the SRM6 generate 12 heat per shot to the 4 of the SRM. Thats triple the heat per shot. Adding 1 SHS per ML is going to keep you firing. Thats the same as adding 1 ton of ammo to your SRM. And for ammo 1 ton of SRM ammo is a potential 250 damage. That seems like a pretty solid investment. To compare, AC ammo comes out to 150 damage per ton for perfect accuracy. So you can fudge 2/5th missile per volley and you're breaking even with an AC user with perfect accuracy.

And my lasers can fire all match long AND out range those SRMs. Also, those lasers might do less damage in one burst, but they do pin point damage. And, if you wish to compare, ACs and other direct fire busy damage weapons do those SRM damage in one bust of damage one point.

SRMs are so powerful, must explain why my 4 PPC Stalker is so nice when I cause 40 damage to one location.

SRMs are not that bad. I barely use them myself. My Cicada works well enough without a single SRM on it. Same with my Stalker, Dragon, Hunchback...

Why do you keep responding to only a tiny fraction of my comment, and ignore the rest of it? You keep focusing on the first sentence, and not the rest...

Edited by Tesunie, 01 March 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

"Firepower" is a meaningless metric.

wish it were but not the case when you can one shot a raven/cicada/cent with 2xlrm20 on those hardpoints and only tickle him with 2xSRM6

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 March 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Vocis]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

A lurmboat that tries to force fights in open areas in a good bracket (or even a bad bracket) will learn why sitting out in the open is a Very Bad Idea against pretty much anything with long-range capability.

Who said the LRM boat is in the open area?

It is called "teamwork" you might not have seen it, but some people do use it.

[Doc Holliday]

Mazzyplz, on 01 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

NOPE

they're pretty useless in the awesome 8t

if any of you is making this claim please buy an awesome 8t just so you can prove me wrong, please.

assault mech with 2 missile hardpoint and srm6 is a joke, waay more damage if swapped to LRM.

srm6 start becoming effective for a large mech at 3

I already have the Awesome 8T. I guess you just don't know how to use SRMs.

[Mazzyplz]

Doc Holliday, on 01 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I already have the Awesome 8T. I guess you just don't know how to use SRMs.

have fun trading blows with that SRM4+SRM6 commando!!!
sure makes you feel powerful huh?

my skill is not the topic here d-bag.

it's about how the light can do that with their available slots, but they can't with the big LRM so they're not better per hardpoint in all cases