198 replies to this topic

[Inyc]

Mazzyplz, on 01 March 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

if srm6 were any worse that 8T would be unplayable to someone who wants to try srm on it to get that master for his other models because he doesn't like LRM.

Since the 8T has less missile hard points than most brawlers (most of those pick chassis with 3~4~6) the 8T would suffer less from an SRM nerf than other brawling chassis.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Taemien, on 01 March 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

...
You don't want me having the ability to fire them all in a stream like that. I would use SRMs quite a bit more then. The ability to deal 15 points of damage to a single location rather then the spread splat it does now?
...

I already put them into one spot, Its called "Point blank". If you're using SRM6 at more than 10 meters away, you're using them wrong.

If they come out at a stream, the only way you could make them hit the same spot would be against a stationary target, or you have exceptional skill.

In the case of the former: You need to find better opponents.

In the case of the latter: It raises the skill threshold on the weapon, which is what is needed.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

SRM "skill" is a bit of a joke, but thats another problem. SRMS arent broken. It's when you stack 3 or more that it becomes to much. Add that to "point blank" firing and you should be able to see the problem unless you dont want to, or are abusing it and think its good fun.

[Taemien]

Eldragon, on 01 March 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

I already put them into one spot, Its called "Point blank". If you're using SRM6 at more than 10 meters away, you're using them wrong.

If they come out at a stream, the only way you could make them hit the same spot would be against a stationary target, or you have exceptional skill.

In the case of the former: You need to find better opponents.

In the case of the latter: It raises the skill threshold on the weapon, which is what is needed.

Anyone who has played MW4 or MWLL knows how to land streams of SRMs already. Its not really that hard. As for players who let someone boating SRMs get that close to them, well we shouldn't balance the game around ignorance or ineptitude.

Unskilled pilots do eventually become skilled pilots.

Zerstorer Stallin, on 01 March 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

SRM "skill" is a bit of a joke, but thats another problem. SRMS arent broken. It's when you stack 3 or more that it becomes to much. Add that to "point blank" firing and you should be able to see the problem unless you dont want to, or are abusing it and think its good fun.

I don't 'abuse' it as you call it, not because I think its wrong, but because I think its just not as effective as you make it out to be.

Edited by Taemien, 01 March 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Terror Teddy]

Mystere, on 01 March 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Enough with these nerf threads already. Just learn to deal with them by practicing, practicing, and practicing. Continue this and we might all end up with nothing but Urbanmechs armed with machine guns.

But on second thought ...

hehehe - gimme my urbie of doom.

I agree that the A1 can be annoying due to massive SRM launches but really - what other weapons does it have?

It is THE missile carrier since it has no other hardpoints.

Take out ONE ear and that's 50% firepower right off the bat. Take out both and it's useless.

The only other mechs I can think of that is limited to two weapon locations is a Jenner and a Commando right now when we talk about arms.

The A1 IS a one trick pony but when the options are SSRM / LRM or SRM what would YOU choose.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 01 March 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Tesunie]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Look I'm not trying to compare apples with oranges here. I set the premise clearly in my OP: This is about brawlers. Brawlers don't use LRMs or PPCs. Brawlers use weapons they can use at close range while mobile against usually mobile targets.

Some of us are simply saying that not everyone brawls. Not to mention the boating of close range weapons, no matter what type, brings fourth strengths and weaknesses. You want that brawler build be more effective? Maybe add in a single long range weapon so you can do damage as you approach, not just when you are stuck. Tactical flexibility will give you the option to do damage at more range, letting you choose your engagements more wisely, deal damage while you approach and let you choose to close in our keep your distance. (Should also help with larger maps with less cover, such as alpine and caustic.)

[Vapor Trail]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

If you're trying to core someone, you don't care about incidental damage to other areas of their mech. If you think raw damage matters more than precision damage: here's a little thought experiment. Think about what a 6xGauss mech could do if it shot various parts of various mechs. Is it more or less effective than 6xSRM6?

No you care about damage to the panel you're shooting at. But incidentals are NICE to have. Because if you're beating on the CT of an enemy mech, and are doing just as much damage to his side torsos for what is basically "for free"... you're going to chew his side torsos off a short time before you kill him. The thing is though, the closer you get, the more damage you do to the intended panel with SRMs. So your average of thirty per panel goes from 30/30/30 to 20/50/20 and beyond.

As far as your thought experiment goes... Consider the same tonnage in SRM6. Thirty SRM6 launchers? Yee gods...

But since neither of those loads are possible, we might want to consider those that are.
Four Gauss. Twenty SRM6s Both technically possible under TT construction rules.
Gauss: Sixty damage output, under the proper circumstances deliverable to a single panel.
SRMs Three HUNDRED damage output, under the proper circumstances deliverable to a single panel.

6 SRM6 is twenty four tons of weapon with Artemis installed. Less than two Gauss.

Three times the damage output with 80% or less of the investment in weapon tonnage.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Who would add Artemis with 6 srms? It brings no benefit for the current play type.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 01 March 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

I agree that SRM6s are too good per hardpoint. I feel they need their damage lowered and their range increased.

If you mean effective range,I think this is a good combination. The spread needs to be lessened at long ranges, and if they can fire up to 270m without spreading the missiles over a 4 Atlai wide space... Then a damage reduction will work pretty well. Less impressive at close range,but more impressive at extended range.

[MustrumRidcully]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Hills hard counter LRMs. Hills are OP, nerf hills.

Hills hard counter LRMs, PPCs, SRMs, NARC, Medium Lasers, Large Lasers, Small Pulse Lasers, MGs, Flamers...

I think the only thing they don't hard counter is ECM.

I think this is conclusive proof that ECM is OP.

[Royalewithcheese]

Vapor Trail, on 01 March 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

No you care about damage to the panel you're shooting at. But incidentals are NICE to have. Because if you're beating on the CT of an enemy mech, and are doing just as much damage to his side torsos for what is basically "for free"... you're going to chew his side torsos off a short time before you kill him. The thing is though, the closer you get, the more damage you do to the intended panel with SRMs. So your average of thirty per panel goes from 30/30/30 to 20/50/20 and beyond.

Sure, SRMs are good. Nobody is arguing with that. But "a SRM6 does as much damage as a gauss rifle" is kind of missing the point of why precision is important in this game. I highly encourage anyone who is worried about the math on SRM6s to try actually playing some matches with a mech that incorporates them and other weapon types (you can't go wrong with a DDC brawler) and get a feel for how they work in a match

[MustrumRidcully]

Vocis, on 01 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Who said the LRM boat is in the open area?

It is called "teamwork" you might not have seen it, but some people do use it.

Sosomeone else is out in the open, and if you catch him, your LRM boat is useless?

[Taemien]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 March 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

If you mean effective range,I think this is a good combination. The spread needs to be lessened at long ranges, and if they can fire up to 270m without spreading the missiles over a 4 Atlai wide space... Then a damage reduction will work pretty well. Less impressive at close range,but more impressive at extended range.

I'd much rather see streaks get that treatment.

As I said before, they are too inaccurate to actually be 'too good'. One needs to get in someone's face to be able to hit the same location with all missiles. No other weapon system requires that much work and that extreme short range to do max damage like that.

Right now SRMs are really strong because most of the maps require close range fighting. When this is no longer the norm, you will see a drop in SRM use. In fact they probably won't be used as a main weapon system anymore. We're already seeing complaints about it about Alpine. The next three maps are going to be just as big.

[Vapor Trail]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 01 March 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Who would add Artemis with 6 srms? It brings no benefit for the current play type.

Actually it does have a slight effect, tightening the spread lets you land more damage in the intended panel... allowing you to kill without facehugging.

It might not change it enough to matter, I'm just covering bases though.

Thontor, on 01 March 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

There are many other considerations besides damage output and weight... We mentioned the spread, which is number one... But there's also the range... Not only do you have a hard maximum range of 270m... In order to be effective at all you have to be much much closer than that.

I'm not denying SRMs are good.. Probably too good... But please, please stop comparing them to ballistics and energy weapons...

So you're just saying "Stop comparing them."

Without some kind of comparison, you can't say they're too good, not good enough, or even just right.

Basically the only real factor in how good SRMs are is "How close can I get before getting cored?"
On most maps the answer to that question is usually "Pretty dang close."

[Royalewithcheese]

Vapor Trail, on 01 March 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Without some kind of comparison, you can't say they're too good, not good enough, or even just right.

IMO the best way to compare SRMs with other weapons (because of all the intangibles at play here) is through actually playing a robot that mounts both and seeing how they perform in an actual match. I highly recommend the standard DDC build (3xSRM6, 2xUAC5 or AC20, 2xMdLas, engine somewhere between STD 330 and STD 350) for seeing how they perform in comparison to ballistic and laser weapons.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 01 March 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Inyc]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

IMO the best way to compare SRMs with other weapons (because of all the intangibles at play here) is through actually playing a robot that mounts both and seeing how they perform in an actual match. I highly recommend the standard DDC build (3xSRM6, 2xUAC5 or AC20, 2xMdLas, engine somewhere between STD 330 and STD 350) for seeing how they perform in comparison to ballistic and laser weapons.

I can do it with my CN9-AL. Mounts both lasers and SRMs. If I want to keep an STD engine and still get decent speeds, I use 4 ML and 2 SRM6. The SRM6 will always do more damage, even packing only 2 tons of ammo. If I use an XL engine and get 2 LL to replace 2 ML, it about breaks even.

Thats still 4 Energy hardpoints vs 2 missile hardpoints. 12 tons vs 8 tons. 6 crit slots vs 4.

[Dishevel]

OneEyed Jack, on 01 March 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Um... the answer is yes. I've seen a number if A1's with 6xSRM4 for better heat management, less spread, less ammo usage and faster cycle. Next question you want to ask, then answer incorrectly?

Also one I tried an A1 with 6xSRM2s with Art on chainfire.
At the right distance it hit almost like 6xAC5s. Had to have the distance just right though. About 125 - 150 meters I believe.

[Royalewithcheese]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

I can do it with my CN9-AL. Mounts both lasers and SRMs. If I want to keep an STD engine and still get decent speeds, I use 4 ML and 2 SRM6. The SRM6 will always do more damage, even packing only 2 tons of ammo. If I use an XL engine and get 2 LL to replace 2 ML, it about breaks even.

Thats still 4 Energy hardpoints vs 2 missile hardpoints. 12 tons vs 8 4 tons. 6 crit slots vs 4.

Hahaha so your main guns do most of your damage? I'm shocked. If you had bought a Yen Lo Wang, would you be posting on the forums about how the AC/20 is op?

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 01 March 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Inyc]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Hahaha so your main guns do most of your damage? I'm shocked. If you had bought a Yen Lo Wang, would you be posting on the forums about how the AC/20 is op?

My main gun on the CN9-AL is the two Large Lasers arm... which always gets shot off The SRMs are side torso mounted, ML center torso.

[ArmandTulsen]

THE PROBLEM IS BOATING, NOT SRMS!

****!

/capslock