29 replies to this topic

[jay35]

Some players simply want easy mode and every time a build is discovered that challenges them in combat, they run to the forums to shout "OP! Nerf!" about it. This happens with every game.

PGI, the rest of us are thankful you're not quick to listen to those complaints, because it would quickly result in a very generic experience where everyone would have to run the exact same mech before they're happy, and the entire point of the mechlab and diversity of builds would go right out the window.

Yes, Raven 3Ls are a pain in the butt to take down.

Yes, ECM makes it harder to target the mech that bears it.

Yes, the splatapult is a bit annoying and cheesy.

But they all have a place in the game and they add to the diversity of combat experiences and encourage teamplay to overcome.

People need to learn how to counter these threats on the battlefield, not just have their inexperience or desire for easy mode coddled with nerfs. And yes, all of those commonly complained about items have counters.

Here's the perfect example of this attitude on display. The fellow quoted there even admits a flight of 5 Raven 3Ls is beatable, he just doesn't like the challenge of having to beat even two of them on the field of battle. At least he's honest.

So thank you for not being easily swayed by such attitudes. Hopefully this suggestion will provide ammunition to your internal balance discussions at the office and serve as a reminder that keeping the game challenging and diverse is as important to the overall experience as making it accessible to new players may be.

Edited by jay35, 01 March 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone]

LRM SRM,SSRM can be avoided.

use AMS (or ams group to completly nulify lrms), hide, POWERDOWN YOUR MECH !,
for srm/ssrm just get out of the 270m area.

now for ecm...wel...you can use ecm or use ppc or just disconect.
to go out of the ecm area is near imposible considering ravens,commando's and cicadas are prety damn fast.

now considers lrms are suposed to be rockets.
rockets are weapons , thus they should hurt.
ecm isnt a weapon, but its more powerfull than a weapon. infact it grants you near godlike powers.

Edited by MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone, 01 March 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Phaesphoros]

I hope I'm not feeding trolls with this.

"Some players simply want easy mode...run to the forums to shout 'OP! Nerf!'..."
I'd agree with that. *Some* players do that. Not all "OP" shouts are from these players.

"PGI, the rest of us are thankful you're not quick to listen to those complaints, because it would quickly result in a very generic experience..."
I'd also agree with that. Although I've posted a _prediction_ of the return of ECM as a countermeasure to LRMs, I didn't say that LRMs are OP. If this game wouldn't change from time to time, it would probably become lame (at least in pugs).

"Yes, Raven 3Ls are a pain in the butt to take down."
I've piloted (and mastered) mechs in every weight class, never found the 3L to be such a big pain - until I started playing Jenners (I've elited/mastered them by now). This is not the thread to QQ about 3Ls, so I'll just add that to fulfil my role as a scout, I often encounter 3Ls 1on1, and my chances to win even if more skilled than the 3L pilot are really low - so are the chances to escape. It's all about perspective. 3Ls as a med/heavy/assault: annoyance (for me). 3Ls as a non-ECM light: QQ
So you could even say 3L reduces diversity as more and more players will pilot the 3L (though this is not entirely true btw).

"Yes, ECM makes it harder to target the mech that bears it."
I'd agree with that and since in pugs most ECM mech pilots are NOT team players, this is not so much a problem (rambo DDC, troll 3L). Since most players in pugs DON'T report enemies' positions, I'd consider stealth as a kind of a problem, though (but rather try to encourage people to use the chat for useful information instead of QQing about ECM).

"Yes, the splatapult is a bit annoying and cheesy."
It's most likely becoming extinct in pugs due to Alpine. Heard a lot of "it's simple to take it down", but the QQ I think is most likely from brawlers and no information sharing. When you're a brawler hiding behind cover from LRMs, then suddenly the splat appears and you can do - well nothing. You're dead. That's not fun. That's 2 min of game play with no dmg and no blowing up stompy robots. It's not that the A1 is OP, it's a highly specialized build (->teamwork). Same with the 6PPC STK.

"But they all have a place in the game and they add to the diversity of combat experiences and encourage teamplay to overcome."
I'd agree that specialized builds do have their place in the game, though I'd rather say that it has been shown the only form of teamplay that emerges of it is the fear (of A1s), so everyone shoots (shot) them down first. I do announce splatcats, boomcats, snipers, LRM boats and so on but rarely hear any anouncement from others via text chat in pugs.

"So thank you for not being easily swayed by such attitudes."
Indeed. Yet again, PERSPECTIVE and SCOPE. You did some statements here without revealing your perspective (or point of view) and without limiting the scope of these statements. Like "the rest of us are thankful". How could you know? Rather than that, I'd say "some of us" (if you know some) or "there are some". Same with "Yes, Raven 3Ls are a pain in the butt to take down." As a 3L pilot, it is a challenge and might be fun to take down a 3L. As a med who sticks with the team, I mostly don't care because there's an AWS I'm shooting at. As a JR pilot, it really is more than PITA, it's next to impossible (if you're not incredibly more skilled than the 3L pilot).


As balance to all the QQing, I appreciate your post. Yet, please keep in mind the sheer number of QQing about ECM and 3Ls as well as the reports of 8 mans indicate something. I won't try to analyze WHAT it indicates, but saying it's only players who want easy mode is most likely incorrect.

Edited by Phaesphoros, 01 March 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[jay35]

@MQ9: I just don't see the big deal about ECM, given it works as intended: You can't lock missiles onto them and they only show up on radar when they're closer than normal. That's what ECM does. That's the purpose of it.

So shoot them with lasers or ballistics. Works every time. Nearly every match there is one or two enemy mechs with ECM, and the same on our team. It doesn't imbalance the teams. It doesn't prevent the mech bearing it from dying. It doesn't really do anything other than add a bit of stealth to gameplay tactics and helps against missile lock... except when an ECM on your team Counters their ECM, which nullifies it. Again, a pretty nice balance.

Edited by jay35, 01 March 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Badconduct]

I agree and disagree. Don't nerf 'Mechs that work, but if the game is clearly unbalanced, then do put some effort into fixing it

[ICEFANG13]

Many players that are asking for a nerf on ECM also ask for a nerf to LRMs and SSRMs. So thankfully we are on the same page, you want the same power level as now, we want, comparably, the same power level, just less of it, for each of them.

Of course ECM isn't balanced, and we are beta testers, why should we not complain and try to improve the game? Its like saying that the game will be perfect each patch, we should just accept it and not try to improve it.

[StalaggtIKE]

jay35, on 01 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yes, ECM makes it harder to target the mech that bears it.

Learning to adapt goes both ways. In some ways ECM provides a challenge, in other ways it dumbs gameplay down. ECM makes it easier to:

• avoid LRM/SSRM
  
• flank the enemy team
  
• disrupt enemy's formation (IFF removal)
  
• rush undetected for base cap
  
• get in optimum range of weapons (great for brawlers!)

ECM provides free defense, while forcing the other team to strategize around it. It just depends on what side of ECM you are on.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 March 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[DocBach]

I really think some players need to study logic better. The arguments for ECM have pretty much been ad hominen attacks (l2p, quit QQ, adapt or cry) on players who dislike it, instead of actually defending how if ECM makes the game better.

My favorite is how diverse MWO has become thanks to ECM. You mean diverse like, in the way you only see Ravens, D-DC Atlases, jump sniper Cataphracts who don't need to target their enemies, and Splatcats?

ECM cheapens game play. It's restricted the highly-touted Information Warfare to a single piece of equipment, and it's not even a skill based, piece of equipment. Superiority is gained by means of an arms race; who can stack the most of it, and who can bring the most PPC's? If you find yourself on a team who doesn't have as much of ECM, or the equipment that was changed to fit around ECM, and you aren't using third party VOIP, you are going to find yourself in a bad game.

People aren't crying nerf to this system because they can't adapt to it, or even thrive in it; they are saying change it because it's a BAD mechanic. There is no information warfare, only ECM. All tactics and builds revolve around competing against ECM. ECM didn't disable missile boating, it just required the LRM boat to lase its targets itself. Now you've got spotters who don't need to spot because they can't share information anyways with ECM, so then after destroying Information Warfare, ECM starts destroying other tennants of the game, like Role Warfare....

Most major changes in equipment lately have been added to try to balance out ECM. That should be a red flag in your BS kit that something is amiss with it.

[General Taskeen]

DocBach, on 01 March 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

That should be a red flag in your BS kit that something is amiss with it.

The BS kits are weak with these ones. They are no Jedi yet.

[sycocys]

How do you suggest we counter a bugged or purposely messed up hitbox?

[Corvus Antaka]

If you can prove beyond a doubt that a commando without ECM has anywhere near the power of the Commando 2D, or how many mechs are not useless compared to their ECM conterparts, I will believe you. Until then, imho the ECM mechs need disadvantages, like not having more than 1 missile port, or not having the best engine for that mech class.

[blinkin]

jay35, on 01 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Some players simply want easy mode and every time a build is discovered that challenges them in combat, they run to the forums to shout "OP! Nerf!" about it. This happens with every game.

• return of repair and reload: all assaults should stand to lose some money in a match, any heavy mech with an XL engine should be at risk of losing money in a match. i pilot a CATAPULT C4 with 4xSRM6, that goes 86kph. i miss the days when there was some risk and challenge to piloting this build.
  
• reactors going critical: any mech within 90m of a critical reactor should die any mech within 180m should suffere severe damage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.c...d&v=9X5LP4hJu9k
  
• armor and structure values returned to table top level or something similar (currently everything is at least doubled)
  
• exposed missile tubes should be vulnerable to critical hits: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1
  
• mechs that wander into the caldera on caustic should build up heat steadily until they explode or leave
  
• cockpit shake any time you are firing jump jets: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1
  
• and yes streaks that actually require you to aim some: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

my "easy mode" would grind all of the mouth breathers that don't want to aim their missile launchers and hide behind ECM to dust. there are very few who would do very well in the hellish blasted landscape that i would truly like this game to be.

i don't want to nerf streaks but asking players who use them to aim a little bit seems reasonable. i want all of the face humping morons out of my SRM catapults.

as far as ECM: i think it will become much less important as other systems it effects become more balanced.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Yeah stacking SRM's isnt a big deal , whats a 90 point alpha on a 65 ton mek with 90k speed? Thats balance at its best! Again, any 2 year old can pilot a mek into short range.
Also in regards to Streaks, NO WEAPON SHOULD HIT EVERY SHOT. and more over be immune to the very weapons that HIT EVERY SHOT. I dont mind 3L's. I mind that they don't have to aim, require locks or pretty much anything but run in a circle and hold the mouse button down. Other lights are second class to the 3L. The only one that is close is the Commando that has ECM. Its second only because its 10 tons lighter. All the other lights are lumped together as SUB PAR.

[Dirus Nigh]

The simple fact that the devs are changing several items and game function in the game in reaction to ECM is proof that it is unbalanced. Unfortunately the devs are choosing to make those changes. Instead of using the simple and more direct solution of changing ECM.

As Docbach sais ECM had bad mechanical elements to it. It is forcing the rest of the mechanics and game play to revalve around it.

WIth ECM the way it works now there is no intensive to make more dynamic maps or implement a third property of ECM, ghosting. The terrain and environmental effects could be implemented that makes really brings information warfare to the for front. Deep forests that limit detection ranges. Geological effects that would cause back scatter and fussing of sensors, such as heavy iron deposits. Weather effects that cause low visibility and or sensor disruption, such as massive electrical storms, or dust/silica storms.

ECM as it is right now acts like a giant wet blanket on every thing.

[Tharkan Stuermer]

jay35, on 01 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Some players simply want easy mode and every time a build is discovered that challenges them in combat, they run to the forums to shout "OP! Nerf!" about it. This happens with every game.

PGI, the rest of us are thankful you're not quick to listen to those complaints, because it would quickly result in a very generic experience where everyone would have to run the exact same mech before they're happy, and the entire point of the mechlab and diversity of builds would go right out the window.

Yes, Raven 3Ls are a pain in the butt to take down.

Yes, ECM makes it harder to target the mech that bears it.

Yes, the splatapult is a bit annoying and cheesy.

But they all have a place in the game and they add to the diversity of combat experiences and encourage teamplay to overcome.

People need to learn how to counter these threats on the battlefield, not just have their inexperience or desire for easy mode coddled with nerfs. And yes, all of those commonly complained about items have counters.

Here's the perfect example of this attitude on display. The fellow quoted there even admits a flight of 5 Raven 3Ls is beatable, he just doesn't like the challenge of having to beat even two of them on the field of battle. At least he's honest.

So thank you for not being easily swayed by such attitudes. Hopefully this suggestion will provide ammunition to your internal balance discussions at the office and serve as a reminder that keeping the game challenging and diverse is as important to the overall experience as making it accessible to new players may be.

Actually, there really isn't any tactic from preventing a ECM-equipped Raven 3L from screwing any other non-ECM light, or medium Mech, especially, if you don't have a ping lower than 150. That's got nothing to do with tactics, but with totally overpowered equipment. In addition, the Splashpult doesn't exploit faulty equipment, but optimizes the Mech as a short range brawler. I. e. the Splashpult has some serious troubles, if its engaged at medium to long ranges, but it is too slow to close in fast (yes, I know, the Raven is a brawler, too, but this doesn't affect the Raven much, since the creep is moving very fast). The Raven's strength is a vastly overpowered piece of equipment, which the Raven exploits almost perfectly.

Consequently, this piece of crap has to be nerfed, if game balance is any matter to the game developers!

[RLBell]

While not much of a balance, a splatcat with its doors open can have its SRM launchers critted and only opening them when firing adds time for the target to do something. What is funny is when a splatcat comes face to face with a STK-5M kitted for short range brawling-- nearly as many SRM tubes, with lots of lasers thrown in for good measure.

ECM is as bad as it is, because streak cats blew jenners away in short order and LRM boats rained hot screaming death on anything they could detect. However, like the cane toad versus an insect pest plaguing australian sugar crops, the fix was worse than the pest.

If LRM's and SSRM's were such a problem, they should have fixed those systems. Forcing streak boats to re-establish a lock before firing each time would help lights trying to dodge them. Reducing the damage or reducing the missiles per ton (maybe even both) would balance LRM boats.

The most egregious imbalance of the RVN-3L would be partly addressed by having an attempt to lock on to a target with LRM's or streaks negate ECM benefits.

The majority of players pug. Anything that takes the fun out of pugging threatens the longterm viability of the game. ECM is a threat to puggers having fun (as are overpowered LRM's and streaks versus lights).

[Gremlich Johns]

jay35, on 01 March 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

@MQ9: I just don't see the big deal about ECM, given it works as intended: You can't lock missiles onto them and they only show up on radar when they're closer than normal. That's what ECM does. That's the purpose of it.

Ahem,

Having used ECM in real life, I can assure you that the in-game ECM does something wholly different. Please edit your post to: "That's what in-game ECM does. That's the purpose of it." then it will be correct. Well, maybe.

The power necessary to run real-life ECM is pretty high and the equipment (all very frequency range specific - comms or radar and never optical) generates quite a bit of heat. And it does NOT convey stealth - EVER. On the contrary, if you are looking at o-scope for electromagnetic interference, anything that uses ECM projects its presence boldly and quite obviously and is usually of sufficient transmission duration to allow a fixing of its grid location, permitting lots of artillery fire to be called upon it.

Make in-game ECM function like that (I submit making a heatsink part of its construction and making it require 3 slots) with the anticipated expectation of artillery fires and I am sure people would gripe less.

[jay35]

I have no idea why you're attempting to bring a real-life counterpart into this discussion. The game originated in a tabletop game. Go look at how ECM works there, and in previous MechWarrior games. Both of those sources hold primacy over anything in the real world. Same reason why large-caliber maqchineguns aren't armor piercing monsters in MWO the way they are in real life.

As for the rest of the discussion, it's like some of you don't actually play the game much and form your opinions based on one or two matches you played that give you an incomplete picture of things.

I've played easily a couple hundred games in the past week alone and of them I could count on one hand the number of times there was more than 2-3 ECM mechs on my team, it's literally that rare to happen that more than 2-3 per team run an ECM mech, and most often it's just one and occasionally two. Same goes for splatcats, D-DCs, and any of the other things people like to whine about. Also, your team has an equal chance to have these builds so it's not like it's causing any sort of true imbalance in the game.

The only thing that sucks about fighting a 3L is the Raven's seemingly doubled armor value compared to everything else in its class, or perhaps it's simply the ability to hit it. It is supremely challenging to take down a full-armor Raven, regardless of which variant. ECM may make it slightly harder because it helps avoid missile lock, but you shouldn't be leaving your missile boat unattended and vulnerable to enemy Light mechs precisely for this reason. Again, teamwork, which is the goal of a team-based game, will overcome any Raven. Those of you blaming the Raven's toughness on its ECM are pointing fingers at the wrong element. It's not ECM, it's the Raven's chassis, whether it's the hitbox/netcode or the armor values, there may indeed be something amiss there. But to try to pin that on it carrying ECM is just being ridiculous. You shouldn't automatically be able to lock missiles on any mech anytime you want. Sorry, that's just not going to happen. If that's really what it boils down to, then maybe this isn't the game for you.

And yes, ECM does improve the game because it does add depth to the tactical aspect of gameplay. You and I SHOULD be on our toes and not assuming that we can magically pick up every enemy on our radar and if we don't see any radar contacts in a certain direction then it's automatically safe over there. That's the shallow, dumbed-down sort of gameplay that ECM defeats, and that's the best part about it. It allows for sneaking, scouting, recon, stealth, etc. That's a Good Thing ™. The game needs that aspect, lest it be merely a stupidly simple brawler.

Edited by jay35, 02 March 2013 - 09:58 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

How does LRMs, that limit brawling, becoming hindered greatly by ECM, make less brawling?

Is it balanced? No.

Why because we have to learn to play? We saw each other plenty during that hero mech thing. We both know we don't need to learn to play. ECM for its abilities is way too good for its weight and slots. We are in a beta, so we wish to improve it, ECM needing changes doesn't mean that we are bad or good or anything, looking at what it does, its too good.

If you don't believe me, then post your stats and I'll post mine.

[Volthorne]

jay35, on 02 March 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

I have no idea why you're attempting to bring a real-life counterpart into this discussion. The game originated in a tabletop game. Go look at how ECM works there, and in previous MechWarrior games.

Link in my signature. Pages you're looking for are 85 and 136. Have fun.