142 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Volthorne, on 02 March 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

A: I ran a surprisingly devastating RVN-4X in Closed Beta that was essentially on-par with a Heavy in terms of damage output, and 30 tons lighter. Sure, I typically got my *** handed to me by other Lights, but still...

And I can put 3 ppcs on a Jenner that does on par damage with an awesome, doesn't mean it's viable or generally a good idea.

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B: B stands for "bull sh**". I'm willing to concede that LRMs need some tweaking, but I shouldn't be punished for making LRMs the primary weapon system on, say, a Catapult (you know, like they should be?). I personally refuse to put a TAG because it drops my defence by 1/4, and because I shouldn't need to further gimp myself (I've already devoted upwards of a third of my tonnage to a single role) to be able to use the weapons I want to in the first place.

On topic: Cons for ECM... THERE ARE NONE.

Cons for ECM: you have to play one of 5 variants to use, of which only two are even viable, and one is a walking target box.

And you are INDIRECT fire. If you don't want to supply your own targeting information than find a friend with tag and make him do the legwork for you. As soon as I see a missile launch icon on an enemy I immediately focus my TAG on it for maximum damage. And hey, ECM doesn't stop that!


And I devote 100% of my weapons to weapons usually only on the ~270 range, so lets nerf anything that allows damage past that point because hey," I should be able to use the weapons I want to in the first place"

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Playing like you actually have an argument for a moment: Why are the COM 1B, and 1D, as well as the RVN 2X- uncompetitive as well?

I don't view any commandos as viable because all it takes is 1 or 2 solid srm shots to completely core it with its paper thin armor and no bonus maneuverability that at least the spider has going for it. And anything those two commandos can do a Jenner can do better.

The 2x is useful similar to the 4x, it's worthlessly slow for a light mech. If you aren't breaking at least 140 in a light aside from hilariously awesome ac/20 4xs you're just a waste of a team slot

Edited by hammerreborn, 02 March 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Streaks need no-fail accuracy adjusted, LRMs need to do less damage, but travel faster- so LRM boating would be less desirable since they would do much less damage.. pretty much relegating them to the support weapon they're supposed to be, not the predator weapon they are now.

I don't think faster speed/less damage would make LRMs less desirable as a boated system. Baddies will still try to cram in 60+ tubes and 20 tons of reloads, while good players will still get good numbers from 20-30 tubes and 5-6 tons in reloads.

ECM certainly has issues, but it's current interaction with LRMs is not one of those issues. I say this as someone who plays a C-1 as a balanced support mech about 25% of the time, other chassis as direct-fire support 50% of the time, and other chassis as a brawler about 25% of the time. I don't run ECM, and I am often the kind of pilot that LRMs are designed to counter.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 02 March 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Livewyr]

Vlad Ward, on 02 March 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

A: They are straight up inferior to the JR7-D. They are not sidegrades. They are not "viable alternatives". They are inferior.

JR7-D: 4 Lasers, 2 Missiles (up to SRM4), Jump jets, 150kph, symmetrical design

JR7-F: 6 Lasers, Jump Jets, 150kph, symmetrical design

RVN-3L: 3 Lasers, 2 Missiles (one with a NARC tube), no jets, 150kph, mismatched reticules, massive side profile

COM-2D: 0 Lasers, 3 Missiles, no jets, 150kph, mismatched reticules, significantly reduced Armor

ECM gives you something called a "Sidegrade". RVN-3L is still worse than a Jenner, build-wise, but allows you to use Streaks+ECM.

LRMs work fine. If you don't believe me, just read all the LRM whine threads in GD. They do need a damage nerf and flight speed buff, though.

A: You forgot the massive Front/back profile, as well as the medium/large side profile on the Jenner.. the Jenner was superior to the other light mechs in the combat role. However, the other light mechs had other things. Ravens being able to mount many more modules, Spiders being king of mobility.. best scout in the game currently, commandos were balanced, heavy missiles/light lasers, to heavy lasers/light(or no) missiles, with a very thin side profile.

And no, ECM does not give you "Side grade" it gives you an absolute advantage. Examples:
Obvious example: Streaks.
Not so obvious example: Raven and Jenner fighting, but have team mates to support.. we'll say they have missile boats, 1 each. Raven's supporting missile boat tears up the Jenner in 7 seconds. Jenner's supporting missile boat apologizes and grabs a bite to eat. Missile immunity =/= side-grade.

--------------------
The LRM whine threads have a point in that LRMs do far too much damage for their weight and tracking ability, that deserves a nerf to damage, offset by a missile speed upgrade.
That does not deserve "Obsolescence Roulette" (If I bring a missile boat and they don't have ECM, I rule. If I bring a missile boat and they do have an ECM (or more) I should power down and get a sandwich.)

[Volthorne]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

And I can put 3 ppcs on a Jenner that does on par damage with an awesome, doesn't mean it's viable or generally a good idea.

And yet my 4X build was viable and worked damned well because ballistics. Wait a minute....

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Cons for ECM: you have to play one of 5 variants to use, of which only two are even viable, and one is a walking target box.

That's not a con, considering they're the best versions of their chassis (with the potential exception of the Cicada).

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And you are INDIRECT fire. If you don't want to supply your own targeting information than find a friend with tag and make him do the legwork for you. As soon as I see a missile launch icon on an enemy I immediately focus my TAG on it for maximum damage. And hey, ECM doesn't stop that!

Did I mention indirect fire ANYWHERE? While I do prefer indirect fire (due to Catapults having a cockpit the size of Texas. Oh, look, another way in which ECM penalizes me!) I can and will acquire direct-fire locks if and when needed. Without TAG. See my last post as to the incredibly valid reason of not mounting TAG.

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And I devote 100% of my weapons to weapons usually only on the ~270 range, so lets nerf anything that allows damage past that point because hey,"I should be able to use the weapons I want to in the first place"

Sure, give me something that makes your aim passively drift away from my 'Mech so that you need to constantly correct your aim more than you already do and then we'll be even, yeh?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

You really are that stupid aren't you?

Ravens top alpha, 20, jenners top alpha: 40.
Jenner has more armor than the raven.
Barring terrible piloting who wins? (Because you probably failed basic counting its the one that does more damage and can take more damage)

Can you make a post without insulting people? Or is that the only way you feel like you can win a debate? I reported you. I'm going to continue to do so if I see you posting in threads in this manner.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

(If I bring a missile boat and they don't have ECM, I rule. If I bring a missile boat and they do have an ECM (or more) I should power down and get a sandwich.)

That is simply not true most of the time. A balanced mech with LRMs as its primary weapon system (not a boat!) does fine against ECM (assuming they don't get ninja-ambushed by multiple D-DCs, but that's gonna hurt no matter what you're running). You need TAG of course, and just a little basic pubbie teamwork.

If you show up in am actual LRM boat, ~45+ tubes and no backup weapons, than you deserve whatever backdoor lovin' you get. I see people do this, it does not work and it should not work. Bad builds are bad, changing the game to make them good doesn't accomplish anything in the long run.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 02 March 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Livewyr]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 02 March 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

I don't think faster speed/less damage would make LRMs less desirable as a boated system. Baddies will still try to cram in 60+ tubes and 20 tons of reloads, while good players will still get good numbers from 20-30 tubes and 5-6 tons in reloads.

ECM certainly has issues, but it's current interaction with LRMs is not one of those issues. I say this as someone who plays a C-1 as a balanced support mech about 25% of the time, other chassis as direct-fire support 50% of the time, and other chassis as a brawler about 25% of the time. I don't run ECM, and I am often the kind of pilot that LRMs are designed to counter.

I think doing about 35% less damage would make them less desirable to boat, since they wouldn't have as big of a reward for a successful alpha strike..

EDIT:
2 Issues with ECM regarding LRMS:
1: Removing them entirely from the situation gives rise to brawlers having much more leeway in playing in open areas with little regard for position. (Snipers as well.)
2: "Balancing" them by ECM counter means that if both teams bring LRM boats (which frequently happens) but one team has all or no ECMs..(which also frequently happens) then the game is heavily lopsided by the uneven missile boat use. ECM should be balanced against it's own component and those like it. (it needs to have cons, and it needs to have balance similar to other equipment like it: BAP) LRMs need to be balanced with PPCs, Gauss, ACs, etc..

Edited by Livewyr, 02 March 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 02 March 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

That is simply not true most of the time. A balanced mech with LRMs as its primary weapon system (not a boat!) does fine against ECM (assuming they don't get ninja-ambushed by multiple D-DCs, but that's gonna hurt no matter what you're running). You need TAG of course, and just a little basic pubbie teamwork.

If you show up in am actual LRM boat, 40+ tubes and no backup weapons, than you deserve whatever backdoor lovin' you get. I see people do this, it does not work and it should not work.

So are Trebuchets with 2 LRM 15's boating? Or a Stalker with a pair or even 4 LRM's? Have you ever seen mechs like the Archer or Catapult in the original games/books/everything else mechwarrior?

LRM support mechs are littered all over this universe. Even PPC support mechs are (Original Awesome).

It's the SRM Boats and Streak Boats that are purely created by these games.

[hammerreborn]

Volthorne, on 02 March 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Sure, give me something that makes your aim passively drift away from my 'Mech so that you need to constantly correct your aim more than you already do and then we'll be even, yeh?

My target and I moving 150kph which I have to track and hold my reticle on rather than getting a lock, firing, and keep looking in the targets general direction

[Nicholas Carlyle]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

My target and I moving 150kph which I have to track and hold my reticle on rather than getting a lock, firing, and keep looking in the targets general direction

If a mech is moving 150kph when I fire LRM's at them, there is almost no way they can't find cover in this game.

[hammerreborn]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 March 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

If a mech is moving 150kph when I fire LRM's at them, there is almost no way they can't find cover in this game.

And this has anything to do with ECM how? So basically you just admitted that you wouldn't be able to hit a 3L with or without ECM

[Nicholas Carlyle]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

And this has anything to do with ECM how? So basically you just admitted that you wouldn't be able to hit a 3L with or without ECM

I think you may have just inadvertently explained why ECM doesn't need to have such a drastic effect on LRM's. Thanks bro.

[Livewyr]

Just occurred to me.. nobody has given me any con to running ECM. (The closest thing was that it was limited to 4 mechs.. that doesn't make it balanced, that just makes those mechs run more often.

Kinda like what would happen if they dropped the weight of Gauss to 9 tones and said you could only run it on HBK-4G, Cat-K2, and Atlas AS7-K... the argument wouldn't fly.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I think doing about 35% less damage would make them less desirable to boat, since they wouldn't have as big of a reward for a successful alpha strike..

With increased speed, you would hit more often, especially at longer ranges. It's a bit of a nerf in terms of ammo consumption, but I think that would be more than compensated for by the fact that you could get a lot more shots on target instead of on a hill or building.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 March 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

So are Trebuchets with 2 LRM 15's boating? Or a Stalker with a pair or even 4 LRM's? Have you ever seen mechs like the Archer or Catapult in the original games/books/everything else mechwarrior?

LRM support mechs are littered all over this universe. Even PPC support mechs are (Original Awesome).

It's the SRM Boats and Streak Boats that are purely created by these games.

Depends on your definition of a boat. I run a C-1 with 2xALRM-15s, TAG, 3MLAS, full JJs, 5 or 6 tons of ammo, and a 300xl. I don't consider it a "boat", because I can chase off a 3L or 2D that wants to get up in my business. It's never helpless, and I can get more damage and more kills than mechs that overspecialize at the cost of mobility or flexibility.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 02 March 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

With increased speed, you would hit more often, especially at longer ranges. It's a bit of a nerf in terms of ammo consumption, but I think that would be more than compensated for by the fact that you could get a lot more shots on target instead of on a hill or building.



Depends on your definition of a boat. I run a C-1 with 2xALRM-15s, TAG, 3MLAS, full JJs, 5 or 6 tons of ammo, and a 300xl. I don't consider it a "boat", because I can chase off a 3L or 2D that wants to get up in my business. It's never helpless, and I can get more damage and more kills than mechs that overspecialize at the cost of mobility or flexibility.

So basically the only LRM boat in the game is the stalker?

I don't think I ever see any mechs other than the stalker with more than 2 LRM's. Maybe the VERY rare Catapult.

And even then, most stalkers with 4 LRM's have some medium lasers too.

[Livewyr]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 02 March 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

With increased speed, you would hit more often, especially at longer ranges. It's a bit of a nerf in terms of ammo consumption, but I think that would be more than compensated for by the fact that you could get a lot more shots on target instead of on a hill or building.

We're not talking super speed upgrade.. we're talking going from 100 to 125-150 so the missiles don't take 10 seconds to get to a thousand meters.

[TB Freelancer]

Vlad Ward were you going by Ender Ward back in the day? You kinda remind me of that guy.....


...anyway. I was a little short with my answer, but ECM does everything right, I just don't think it should be extending its benefits to friendly mechs, and if PGI insists that it does, well the area of coverage needs a massive nerf, also any individual mech with a direct line of sight needs to be able to target it (or any mech under the bubble) allowing missiles to work.

Edited by TB Freelancer, 02 March 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 March 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

And even then, most stalkers with 4 LRM's have some medium lasers too.

I've seen ones that don't, or they're carrying something useless like 2SMLAS. And then they come to the forums and complain that it was ECM's fault that there were 4 mechs ripping them to shreds at the end of a losing match.

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

We're not talking super speed upgrade.. we're talking going from 100 to 125-150 so the missiles don't take 10 seconds to get to a thousand meters.

My point stands. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one apparently.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 02 March 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Just occurred to me.. nobody has given me any con to running ECM. (The closest thing was that it was limited to 4 mechs.. that doesn't make it balanced, that just makes those mechs run more often.

Kinda like what would happen if they dropped the weight of Gauss to 9 tones and said you could only run it on HBK-4G, Cat-K2, and Atlas AS7-K... the argument wouldn't fly.

The point is that those Mechs are awful on their own. That's a serious Con. When you have the choice between taking the best Light Mech in the game and mounting ECM, that's a Con. When you have to choose between a King Crab and a D-DC with ECM, that's a Con.

TB Freelancer, on 02 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Vlad Ward were you going by Ender Ward back in the day? You kinda remind me of that guy.....


...anyway. I was a little short with my answer, but ECM does everything right, I just don't think it should be extending its benefits to friendly mechs, and if PGI insists that it does, well the area of coverage needs a massive nerf, also any individual mech with a direct line of sight needs to be able to target it (or any mech under the bubble) allowing missiles to work.

I'm afraid not. MWO is the first time I've used this name. I believe the name has a tendency to resonate with people of similar mindsets.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 02 March 2013 - 05:30 PM.