42 replies to this topic

[JohnoBurr]

Taemien, on 02 March 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

By the hitbox it currently has, it seems like its pretty squishy as it is. Like everyone said before, the majority throw on XL engines. That one dude that doesn't will be uber survivable but also alot slower.

Interesting suggestion was made however. Make the ECM mechs cap out at a lower engine size. Right now out of all the Ravens the 3L has the largest engine capability. There's actually very little reason to use the 2X and 4X and that should be remedied. I think that if the ECM mechs couldn't go faster then it would make things a little more interesting.

I could even see a ECM mech not able to mount bigger engines than their stock engines (can mount standard or XL version of course).

Maybe this is a decent idea for the Raven, but it doesn't make sense for the other ECM mechs, especially not the D-DC. There's just no justifiable reasoning for making them unable to mount larger engines. That's definitely not the way to balance ECM.

Edited by JohnoBurr, 02 March 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Prosperity Park, on 02 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

The issue is this:

Say someone shoots a 40pt strike at your Jenner's centerline. It all goes to CT and you die (or at least 10pts of overflow damage to internals/engine).
In a Raven, you'll get ~ 25pts Ct and 15pts ST damage, which means you'll live (XL or not, you'll take no internal damage, on average).

I think your on to something. You really can't nail a raven strictly in the RT/LT because the arms extend forward more than it looks like they do in that screenshot. And it's usually moving across your own torso in front of you... You're much more likely to spread your damage across multiple components than you would in something like a catapult. The hit boxes "look" a lot bigger than they are because of the scale of the model in-game.

[Jman5]

I find the vast majority of ravens have to be picked apart slowly over time until practically all their compenents are on the verge of failing. They never go down quickly like a commando or jenner.

It's a combination of factors, but their weird hitboxes is a big reason.

Edited by Jman5, 02 March 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Team Leader]

I think it's not fair. The other lights don't get that advantage of spreading the damage. Lasers especially. It's not too big a deal for ballistics, and not as much for missiles either, but lasers being DoT just make ravens harder to kill because it spreads the damage like melted butter all over the place. A Jenner might as well be a laser magnet with that sort of hit area.

[Glythe]

Team Leader, on 02 March 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

I think it's not fair. The other lights don't get that advantage of spreading the damage.

Are you saying there's a bug with something like an AC/20 hitting the side/not quite side and the CT will flash and the RT will flash?

Or are you saying advantageous hit boxes are not fair? Look back at the Jenner.... you usually don't kill a jenner's CT from the front because his head blocks most of the shot.

[Josef Nader]

It's the biggest problem with the raven chassis itself, and one of the biggest contributors to it's current status as "best light mech:

[Felicitatem Parco]

Glythe, on 02 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Are you saying there's a bug with something like an AC/20 hitting the side/not quite side and the CT will flash and the RT will flash?

Or are you saying advantageous hit boxes are not fair? Look back at the Jenner.... you usually don't kill a jenner's CT from the front because his head blocks most of the shot.

A Dual AC/20 Catapult will land a square 40 on a Jenner's CT every time it hits somewhere in the middle of the Mech, but a Raven stands a significant chance of receiving 20/20 damage (which is very survivable) instead of 40 point-dmg (often fatal in a Light).

I believe the smear-effect is greatly enhanced when facing laser or low-impulse autocannon fire, and SRMs. You have to whittle away Ravens, and simply swat Jenners. I have to Torso Twist vigorously to make my Jenner's side torsos to their job, but a Raven doesn't because it autosmears.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 March 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[Glythe]

Prosperity Park, on 02 March 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

A Dual AC/20 Catapult will land a square 40 on a Jenner's CT every time it hits somewhere in the middle of the Mech, but a Raven stands a significant chance of receiving 20/20 damage (which is very survivable) instead of 40 point-dmg (often fatal in a Light).

In times past the Jenner had a super advantageous hitbox as the head was blocking most of the center torso from the front. Have they completely changed its entire armor layout? Or are you dealing with someone who is just a crack shot? If you aim high you will hit the center torso instead of the head.

I know they made some adjustments to the armor several patches ago (right before they became extinct with the ECM patch).

Edited by Glythe, 02 March 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Glythe, on 02 March 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

In times past the Jenner had a super advantageous hitbox as the head was blocking the center torso. Have they completely changed its entire armor layout? Or are you dealing with someone who is just a crack shot?

I know they made some adjustments to the armor several patches ago (right before they became extinct with the ECM patch).

I can say that in a Jenner my head almost never takes damage.
I take damage in the following locations:
Streaks typically hit front side, or rear center.
Everything else pretty much hits CT, just about everything. I'll die frequently from CT when my armor elsewhere is yellow or at worst orange. Streaks kill my side-torsos without touching pretty much anywhere else. They'll hit my front-side even when the firer is directly behind me.

[Glythe]

One Medic Army, on 02 March 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

I can say that in a Jenner my head almost never takes damage.
I take damage in the following locations:
Streaks typically hit front side, or rear center.
Everything else pretty much hits CT, just about everything. I'll die frequently from CT when my armor elsewhere is yellow or at worst orange. Streaks kill my side-torsos without touching pretty much anywhere else. They'll hit my front-side even when the firer is directly behind me.

Ah well that is interesting. In times past the CT and head were completely separate. I played mine recently and thought it was squishier but I couldn't put my finger on it. If they've added the two boxes together then the Jenner is now pointless (even if there were no ECM).

[Felicitatem Parco]

The Jenner Head hitbox has changed significantly since the past. The entire protrusion once counted as "head," but now only a sliver of Cockpit hitbox remains. This directs shots to CT. The Jenner's side torsos also do not go near the centerline, thereby leaving it open to CT shots.

[LordBraxton]

Banky, on 02 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

I think your on to something. You really can't nail a raven strictly in the RT/LT because the arms extend forward more than it looks like they do in that screenshot. And it's usually moving across your own torso in front of you... You're much more likely to spread your damage across multiple components than you would in something like a catapult. The hit boxes "look" a lot bigger than they are because of the scale of the model in-game.

its true and we already know that PPCs and AC20s have very slight splash damage.

When I hit jenners and commandos with the big guns they go down, ravens just flash yellow\orange (to multiple locations!)

whenever I hit a raven it can be with one shot but it always seems to hit like 3 locations somehow (even UAC5s)

[Rainbow Unikorn]

Glythe, on 02 March 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Your Jenner hitbox is wrong. The head of the Jenner is actually in the middle of the center torso. See the whole part that sticks out from the middle of the mech? That's actually ALL head. Now the cockpit seems to be labeled correctly but the head is distinct from the center torso.


This is the Jenner's head

Sorry but you're wrong.

This, is just the representation of the entire head in the mechlab, not the hitbox for head.



Edit: i haven't my mechlab in my pocket, that why i will check that, and perhaps i have to refresh the hitbox jenner.

Edited by Rainbow Unikorn, 03 March 2013 - 02:05 AM.

[Koshirou]

Beadhanger, on 02 March 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Well these things use xl engines...so i dont think the side torsos "absorb" the damage that should have been dealt to the ct....

If you have 3 locations, the destruction of each of which will take you out of the game, distributing damage among them evenly is very much preferable to one of them (the CT in the Jenner's case) taking most of it. That's a simple mathmatical truth.

Note that unlike the Stalker's, the Raven's side torso hit locations do not take up all of the "cheek" area, just some of it. That means that some damage to them will still hit the CT - as opposed to the Stalker, which frequently has its side torsos shot off.

Another thing I had wondered about before was the Raven taking damage to the front when I had clearly shot it in the back. Now I know why: Because (by my rough visual estimate) close to half of its rear side torso area are actually front hit boxes.

P.S.: Kudos to Rainbow Unikorn for the work of compiling these hit boxes, and thanks to the OP for bringing this up.

Edited by Koshirou, 03 March 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[Jestun]

I see no problem with it personally, it's not as if the Raven is the only mech like this.

The Stalker has the same setup where the majority of assaults don't, etc.

And as has been pointed out by other posters, most Ravens will use an XL engine anyway.

[Taemien]

JohnoBurr, on 02 March 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Maybe this is a decent idea for the Raven, but it doesn't make sense for the other ECM mechs, especially not the D-DC. There's just no justifiable reasoning for making them unable to mount larger engines. That's definitely not the way to balance ECM.

Its not about balancing ECM. In fact my idea does nothing to reduce or inhibit what ECM does. Lower speeds just mean the ECM has to be used differently than it is now. At the end of the day PUGs will still be stomped, Streaks neutered, and mechs still able to sneak up on enemies. In fact it might be a 'buff' since with lower speeds, the ECM mechs will be with their lances more often than by themselves.

Josef Nader, on 02 March 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

It's the biggest problem with the raven chassis itself, and one of the biggest contributors to it's current status as "best light mech:

I wouldn't call it the best light mech. That's assuming the 2X and 4X are used more often too, and together they are used less than Jenners.

Right now the 3L is the only variant of the Raven used because of its ECM and higher speeds. It gets the best of both worlds. There should be a reason to use the 2X and 4X. But right now there is not.

[Hawks]

It makes precisely zero sense for the Raven's side torsos to extend as far forwards as they do.

[armyof1]

Jestun, on 03 March 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

I see no problem with it personally, it's not as if the Raven is the only mech like this.

The Stalker has the same setup where the majority of assaults don't, etc.

And as has been pointed out by other posters, most Ravens will use an XL engine anyway.

The difference here is that the Stalker seldom runs around at 150kph and it sure has a lot bigger hitboxes than the Raven. We're talking about how weapons that usually do pinpoint damage even on smaller mechs than the Raven just smear the damage out on several locations, which hugely improves your ability to survive, XL or not. If you don't see a problem with that then you're beyond reason.

Edited by armyof1, 03 March 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Inveramsay]

It would certainly explain why the ravens are so hard to kill. Please fix more like the Jenners hit boxes

[BillyM]

I'm glad to see this topic come up. There is NO mech in the game that is more difficult to pinpoint damage on than the Raven. They can take more ML+SRM alphas than ANY other light/med/heavy without dropping. I will 1v1 ANY other mech in my Hbk4SP (600,000exp+) ...but surprise me alone with an undamaged 120kph+ Raven and you can expect that to be my last match of the night as I go fume while doing pretty much anything else.

FIX THE HITBOXES!

--BillyM