102 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Tarman, on 03 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Oboy, another "well it happens in current IRL" post. People really need to understand that the passage of time alone is not any kind of guarantee that the stuff we have in the future is automatically still there but better than the stuff we have now. REAL history doesn't even work like that, let alone the "let's bomb ourselves almost to extinction with all the wars ever" future of Battletech. Though they do have you beat by using metric instead of caveman measurements.

And really, do you want a missile that's even better by orders of magnitude than what we have now? Try to keep your balancing ideas within the parameters set by the ingame world, not the outgame world. Almost every modern weapon in existence would wipe the floor with Battlemechs. Earth-current could totally hold its own against even quite a large invasion of mechs. It is not a place we can go to get balance for this game.

And your problem with streaks is what again?
I've seen countless /faceroll rp posts in this thread all for the ''changing of nonsensical angles'', and yet here you are not going after them.

So let's talk strictly balance.
What does more damage, a cluster of SRM4s? or a set of streaks? Unless you really suck balls at aiming, the answer is SRM4s.

Now what does more... SRM6s or Streaks?

Now, lets look at how easily shut down streak 2s are.... all it takes is ECM in disrupt mode. And they're done. Completely.
Streaks are great for shooting light mechs that don't have ECM if you're aiming and target leading skills are /faceroll hero worthy.

That being said some of us actually can lead and aim fire with SRMs and hit lights through carpet bombing with SRMs and hits with lasers.

"they launch from impossible angles'' was specifically what I was responding to, which should have easily been taken up through context of the thread.

Streaks are not OP. Infact they are pretty far from it honestly. I dropped the streak 2s like a cheap ******, squarely because of their limitations in both range, and the fact that they are easily shut down by ECM.

Back pedal and turn. Lead and fire. That's all you have to do to beat the ''super zomg ravens with streaks firing at impossible angles!" And if you're in a vomit kitty you don't even have to back pedal. Just change the direction of your torso rotations.

The only ''argument'' that makes any sense at all is ''impossible angles zomg''. Which I posted in response to.

Edited by Mavairo, 03 March 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Tarman]

Mavairo, on 03 March 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

And your problem with streaks is what again?
I've seen countless /faceroll rp posts in this thread all for the ''changing of nonsensical angles'', and yet here you are not going after them.

So let's talk strictly balance.
What does more damage, a cluster of SRM4s? or a set of streaks? Unless you really suck balls at aiming, the answer is SRM4s.

Now what does more... SRM6s or Streaks?

Now, lets look at how easily shut down streak 2s are.... all it takes is ECM in disrupt mode. And they're done. Completely.
Streaks are great for shooting light mechs that don't have ECM if you're aiming and target leading skills are /faceroll hero worthy.

That being said some of us actually can lead and aim fire with SRMs and hit lights through carpet bombing with SRMs and hits with lasers.

"they launch from impossible angles'' was specifically what I was responding to, which should have easily been taken up through context of the thread.

Streaks are not OP. Infact they are pretty far from it honestly. I dropped the streak 2s like a cheap ******, squarely because of their limitations in both range, and the fact that they are easily shut down by ECM.

Back pedal and turn. Lead and fire. That's all you have to do to beat the ''super zomg ravens with streaks firing at impossible angles!"

The only ''argument'' that makes any sense at all is ''impossible angles zomg''. Which I posted in response to.

I was going against bringing in IRL examples to Battletech, because any IRL weapon system outclasses most of the kit in the game on several levels. Sidewinder behaviour has nothing to do with this game as some kind of comparison to the ingame missile operation having balance.

And lol back up and fire. I'm going to assume by that line you never drive any lights. The problem is usually in relation to the SSRM use on the Raven against other lights. In the LvL area of this game the Raven is far more powerful than it needs to be, from some minor things that happen to combine nastily on this chassis.

The any-angle shot of the Streak is a part of that combo. It's pretty handy to have the ability to land damage on things that aren't in your FOV or are even right behind you. Raven's funky hitboxes give it more durability than it should have by armour alone. Top that with ECM and it makes any light v light combat against a 3L problematic at best. Against larger targets, duh, you can kill it, but it's still punching waaaay above its weight. It's supposed to be an Ewar vehicle, not a fearless assassin.

There needs to be minor tweaks on a few things, and the 3L goes back to A viable light instead of THE viable light. Shot-angle of Streaks is one of those things.

[Livebait]

Ssrm's should never be allowed to fire at 90 + angles. This is just lazy *** programming. They should have been fixed long ago. Because of these things, light vs light depends on who has Ssrms.

[Lightfoot]

If they do they will need to speed up the Lock-On time, which is too long for Battletech SSRMs now. SSRMs are one second to lock-on because they are used at such short ranges. In MWO it's more like 3-4. 3-4 seconds for SSRMs is a bit absurd.

Edited by Lightfoot, 03 March 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[MayGay]

I lol when they do that off my JR7-D

[Goose]

Ever get the feeling TPTB don't tinker with streaks 'cause they have a few more waves of net code improvement coming that'll sort things out?

[Metallis]

Nerf this!! Nerf that!! Not to disrespect my fellow brothers in arms but, come On Gang!! Let's stop crying wolf on everything that kills us. If Ravens are your mech nemesis, don't engage them. If you do engage them, have a plan, work with a teammate, spot for the (over powered ) LRM to take it out. Gang we need to stop whining about overpowered things and learn to adapt, and overcome. Find things to beat so called overpowered items make the game that much more satisfying and fun.

Edited by Metallis, 03 March 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Seanamal]

Suki, on 02 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Raven 3L dominates the other lighst ONLY "because of ECM", because other lights can't do the same - use guided missiles against it.

You are dead wrong on this Suki. Arcdemon has it right. When a com2d (which has ECM and 3 streaks) faces off against a 3L with ecm and 2 streaks the raven wins 90% of the time because it has MORE ARMOR. It's a numbers game. Also ECM is not the only reason 3L's are OP. It's a part of the problem. What makes the 3L OP is a combination of speed, hardpoints, ecm, payload, and available module slots. Fully kitted a 3L can fill almost any role on the battlefield with a simple switch of tactics.

[Corbon Zackery]

Fix AMS so it shoots them down prob solved. It is a Anti missile system after all and streaks are missiles

[Metallis]

Seanamal, on 03 March 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

You are dead wrong on this Suki. Arcdemon has it right. When a com2d (which has ECM and 3 streaks) faces off against a 3L with ecm and 2 streaks the raven wins 90% of the time because it has MORE ARMOR. It's a numbers game. Also ECM is not the only reason 3L's are OP. It's a part of the problem. What makes the 3L OP is a combination of speed, hardpoints, ecm, payload, and available module slots. Fully kitted a 3L can fill almost any role on the battlefield with a simple switch of tactics.

Seanamal is 100% correct. I am a Commando 2D pilot and I fear the Raven. But I have to play better than the Raven pilot and use tactics when I face off with one. You have ample heads up as to opponents you are facing. Unless you're just a bad pilot and don't survey the area your in constantly, it should be difficult for you to be caught off guard. If I see a Raven, I start talking to other lights or some LRM boats to take that Raven out. This is what the game is about people. Not being able to solo a Raven is not my goal. To Kill a raven with corrdinated attacks (with my streak being the last thing the Raven feels. This is what gives me a stiffy.

Edited by Metallis, 03 March 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Skaroth]

Suki, on 02 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Raven 3L dominates the other lighst ONLY "because of ECM", because other lights can't do the same - use guided missiles against it.

Tag should work at any range... that would instantly make all lights viable

[Ecouto]

Sweet drawing :3

[MoonUnitBeta]

Ecouto, on 03 March 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Sweet drawing :3

Thanks lol

Metallis, on 03 March 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Nerf this!! Nerf that!! Not to disrespect my fellow brothers in arms but, come On Gang!! Let's stop crying wolf on everything that kills us. If Ravens are your mech nemesis, don't engage them. If you do engage them, have a plan, work with a teammate, spot for the (over powered ) LRM to take it out. Gang we need to stop whining about overpowered things and learn to adapt, and overcome. Find things to beat so called overpowered items make the game that much more satisfying and fun.

So the fact that PGI wants to turn MWO into an e-sport doesn't scare you when ECM and streaks rule the world? I can understand what youre saying about a lot of people complaining, but do you ever think that it's for a reason? This is a legitimate complaint and concern, and if PGI has half a cent of common sense, they would see that JUST THIS CHANGE, can save a lot of grief. This is all valuable feedback, and it's feedback they should be listening to a whole heck of a lot better than what they have been.

I like finding overpowered builds, but I like finding them when it's overpowered when I use them, you know, because I'm good at aiming, or strip all my armor off my back to put into the front. There's that trade-off effect and you turn your weaknesses into strengths. ECM and streaks, or even just streaks alone, flying out of launchers at 90 and some say 180 degrees is ridiculous. There's no weakness in that.. But you're chiming in to say that "naw guys, just let it go, it's fine!" Just from that sounds to me like you don't like conflict and you are willing to let things hurt you instead of stepping up and saying it how it really is. I like your optimism, but in this case it's a hindrance to the production and balance of the game, no offense at all.
It's just we need to get the point across to PGI, and currently from the Ask the devs, they have the 3L in their sights, but that's the problem. The 3L ISN'T the problem. It's streaks and ECM combined, and when streaks fly out of launchers BACKWARDS, that's a critical design flaw that just adds to the overpoweredness.
See, if this overpowered combination had a way to actually adapt to and overcome, i would not mind it. But there is not a way unless I hop in a 3L of my own. There's nothing fun about that. Like ... at all.
Anyways, I'm getting derailed because the thread is not about the combination, it's just about the streaks leaving the launchers at obscene angles. That's the issue, and that alone can solve a few major issues.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 03 March 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Metallis]

MoonUnitBeta, on 03 March 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Thanks lol

So the fact that PGI wants to turn MWO into an e-sport doesn't scare you when ECM and streaks rule the world? I can understand what youre saying about a lot of people complaining, but do you ever think that it's for a reason? This is a legitimate complaint and concern, and if PGI has half a cent of common sense, they would see that JUST THIS CHANGE, can save a lot of grief. This is all valuable feedback, and it's feedback they should be listening to a whole heck of a lot better than what they have been.

I like finding overpowered builds, but I like finding them when it's overpowered when I use them, you know, because I'm good at aiming, or strip all my armor off my back to put into the front. There's that trade-off effect and you turn your weaknesses into strengths. ECM and streaks, or even just streaks alone, flying out of launchers at 90 and some say 180 degrees is ridiculous. There's no weakness in that.. But you're chiming in to say that "naw guys, just let it go, it's fine!" Just from that sounds to me like you don't like conflict and you are willing to let things hurt you instead of stepping up and saying it how it really is. I like your optimism, but in this case it's a hindrance to the production and balance of the game, no offense at all.
It's just we need to get the point across to PGI, and currently from the Ask the devs, they have the 3L in their sights, but that's the problem. The 3L ISN'T the problem. It's streaks and ECM combined, and when streaks fly out of launchers BACKWARDS, that's a critical design flaw that just adds to the overpoweredness.
See, if this overpowered combination had a way to actually adapt to and overcome, i would not mind it. But there is not a way unless I hop in a 3L of my own. There's nothing fun about that. Like ... at all.
Anyways, I'm getting derailed because the thread is not about the combination, it's just about the streaks leaving the launchers at obscene angles. That's the issue, and that alone can solve a few major issues.

First off I take no offense to your post. I love intelligent conversation or debates. I think my post was an amalgam of all the other nerf post combined that just happened fall into this one. I'm not advocating that if something is broke, not to fix. The 90 degree blind shot (which I have done on a couple of occasions) is not reasonable or realistic and could be fixed. But even though it is broke it's just another log on the fire of discontent with streaks and ECM that is not justified. The do something about the streak and ECM combination is not a valid one IMO.

Now I started this game 4 weeks, so compared to you vets I'm still a rook. But....the only mechs that I’ve found a love for are the lights. So I have played them exclusively. The Commando-2D is my favorite. Now get this...I have only used ECM for about 2 weeks of my gaming time. But even without ECM, I was doing great damage and getting kill shots. What was reason for equipping the ECM?? It was to counter the other ECM players primarily. And I have been doing great and having fun with it. As a Commando you really don’t have much *** (armor) to give before you get blasted. The streaks give us the only real viable reason to play and even have a chance to have some impact in battle. You change the streak and ECM capability and you’re killing an entire line of mechs and the people who enjoy them.

This combination is not some super-build. I get my *** shot off more times than I would like, sometimes pretty spectacularly. But people bring us down. On my build I carry about 200 streaks. I can't go solo after a Medium or heavy. I will run out of missiles long before I can ever hope to destroy it. The ECM and Streaks have limitations.

All I'm saying is, with a little more imagination and some outside the box thinking, this combination will only be a threat if you let it be. I don't know bout you guys, but I don't want everything made easy for me. I like a challenge that makes me think of how to be a better pilot. And I'm a lone wolf pugger.

Edited by Metallis, 03 March 2013 - 07:07 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Metallis, on 03 March 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

First off I take no offense to your post. I love intelligent conversation or debates. I think my post was an amalgam of all the other nerf post combined that just happened fall into this one. I'm not advocating that if something is broke, not to fix. The 90 degree blind shot (which I have done on a couple of occasions) is not reasonable or realistic and could be fixed. But even though it is broke it's just another log on the fire of discontent with streaks and ECM that is not justified. The do something about the streak and ECM combination is not a valid one IMO.

Now I started this game 4 weeks, so compared to you vets I'm still a rook. But....the only mechs that I’ve found a love for are the lights. So I have played them exclusively. The Commando-2D is my favorite. Now get this...I have only used ECM for about 2 weeks of my gaming time. But even without ECM, I was doing great damage and getting kill shots. What was reason for equipping the ECM?? It was to counter the other ECM players primarily. And I have been doing great and having fun with it. As a Commando you really don’t have much *** (armor) to give before you get blasted. The streaks give us the only real viable reason to play and even have a chance to have some impact in battle. You change the streak and ECM capability and you’re killing an entire line of mechs and the people who enjoy them.

This combination is not some super-build. I get my *** shot off more times than I would like, sometimes pretty spectacularly. But people bring us down. On my build I carry about 200 streaks. I can't go solo after a Medium or heavy. I will run out of missiles long before I can ever hope to destroy it. The ECM and Streaks have limitations.

All I'm saying is, with a little more imagination and some outside the box thinking, this combination will only be a threat if you just let it be. I don't know bout you guys, but I don't want everything made easy for me. I like a challenge that makes me think of how to be a better pilot. And I'm a lone wolf pugger.

I agree that broken mechanics can and will push people to adapte, this isn't excuse for PGI to allowing it to continue. More over it will adversely effect the game in the long run by tarnishing the experence for light pilots who want to run other light mechs besides the 3L, or 2D which at this time, are in a seperate class due to the never miss mechanic while in turn begin immune from the same.

[Mavairo]

Tarman, on 03 March 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I was going against bringing in IRL examples to Battletech, because any IRL weapon system outclasses most of the kit in the game on several levels. Sidewinder behaviour has nothing to do with this game as some kind of comparison to the ingame missile operation having balance.

And lol back up and fire. I'm going to assume by that line you never drive any lights. The problem is usually in relation to the SSRM use on the Raven against other lights. In the LvL area of this game the Raven is far more powerful than it needs to be, from some minor things that happen to combine nastily on this chassis.

The any-angle shot of the Streak is a part of that combo. It's pretty handy to have the ability to land damage on things that aren't in your FOV or are even right behind you. Raven's funky hitboxes give it more durability than it should have by armour alone. Top that with ECM and it makes any light v light combat against a 3L problematic at best. Against larger targets, duh, you can kill it, but it's still punching waaaay above its weight. It's supposed to be an Ewar vehicle, not a fearless assassin.

There needs to be minor tweaks on a few things, and the 3L goes back to A viable light instead of THE viable light. Shot-angle of Streaks is one of those things.

I pilot a Dragon. It's close enough to being a light. When I do pilot a light mech it's usually an SRM (as in Single S) and ECMless 2D Commando. The same rule applies to fighting things of Speed. He that cuts the tightest corners will prevail. This is dog fighting 101. The sudden braking power of a mech capable of the acceleration a light mech can do, makes the drop in speed more sudden.

The 3L's issues have nothing to do with streaks however, and everything to do with it'***** boxes and the crappy mechanics of ECM. Which is squarely why I dropped streaks like they were trash. Because without tag, and engaging at longer distances or ECM, that's all Streaks are in MWO is a trash weapon. You might as well be carrying a flamer at that point.

The 3L also unfortunately has the best missile hardpoints outside of the COM 2D commando (which is usually the light I go to. Loaded with SRM4s and 6s)

If they fix the netcode just abit more (I have been using AC10s to pop lights for a good while now), and fix the 3Ls hardpoints 2/3s of the issue vanishes instantly when it comes to murdering them.

Streaks firing at wicked angles is a band aid on a sucking chest wound. Nothing more.
More correct would be to say you have a problem with the 3L, not streaks. If they suddenly removed streaks entirely from the game, the 3L's core issues would remain and in my opinion would become even more evident as the 3L population would just load up on SRM4s and 6s, and then be really punching above their weight class.

Edited by Mavairo, 03 March 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[LordBraxton]

I use my Treb 7m with 1ERPPC 2 Mlas and 3 Streaks

I jump over peoples heads and fire streaks down into them through my legs

like every game

its not my main strategy, it just happens during brawls.

Oh and PPC+3streaks = dead ravens

this is probably because of my mega low ping though, makes aiming at fast lights easy since the hit detection patch

Edited by LordBraxton, 03 March 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[aniviron]

To be fair, I have taken to mounting SRM6 + SRM2 (damn that NARC hardpoint) on my 3L, and it's pretty deadly. I like to imagine the looks on the faces of the other ravens as I splat them faster than they can pour out the damage.

[Tarman]

Mavairo, on 03 March 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

I pilot a Dragon. It's close enough to being a light. When I do pilot a light mech it's usually an SRM (as in Single S) and ECMless 2D Commando. The same rule applies to fighting things of Speed. He that cuts the tightest corners will prevail. This is dog fighting 101. The sudden braking power of a mech capable of the acceleration a light mech can do, makes the drop in speed more sudden.

The 3L's issues have nothing to do with streaks however, and everything to do with it'***** boxes and the crappy mechanics of ECM. Which is squarely why I dropped streaks like they were trash. Because without tag, and engaging at longer distances or ECM, that's all Streaks are in MWO is a trash weapon. You might as well be carrying a flamer at that point.

The 3L also unfortunately has the best missile hardpoints outside of the COM 2D commando (which is usually the light I go to. Loaded with SRM4s and 6s)

If they fix the netcode just abit more (I have been using AC10s to pop lights for a good while now), and fix the 3Ls hardpoints 2/3s of the issue vanishes instantly when it comes to murdering them.

Streaks firing at wicked angles is a band aid on a sucking chest wound. Nothing more.
More correct would be to say you have a problem with the 3L, not streaks. If they suddenly removed streaks entirely from the game, the 3L's core issues would remain and in my opinion would become even more evident as the 3L population would just load up on SRM4s and 6s, and then be really punching above their weight class.

It's not so much the Streaks themselves, that is true, but I didn't want to drag the thread into a 3L-only discussion. It's one of the things that, while small by themselves, add up in that one chassis to make it ridiculous. I don't think repairing magic-launch will fix the 3L in of itself, but regardless the Streak launching could be tweaked to something a bit more reasonable than shooting directly behind you through your own mech. To me that's very poor weapon design more than that it's a really powerful ability on its own.

[Metallis]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 03 March 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I agree that broken mechanics can and will push people to adapte, this isn't excuse for PGI to allowing it to continue. More over it will adversely effect the game in the long run by tarnishing the experence for light pilots who want to run other light mechs besides the 3L, or 2D which at this time, are in a seperate class due to the never miss mechanic while in turn begin immune from the same.

I agree that the current builds make the 2D mommando more appealing for people to use exclusively. But I also use the Commando 1B. I found some fun and effect ways to utilze it's hardpoints.

Edited by Metallis, 03 March 2013 - 10:50 PM.