102 replies to this topic

[UnseenFury]

Make IS ssrm2 ammo cost 500 c-bills a rocket, make clan ssrm6 ammo 1000 c-bills a rocket. Lock is disappear after each volley fired.

Streaks became cancer of the game just like lag shield.

[MoonUnitBeta]

BigJim, on 03 March 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

Not to sound glib or anything dude but this is very, very old news.

Streaks have been mental for ages now, and this is one of the several problems with them.


If you cast your mind back to closed Beta there was a given turning-radius for Streaks, and they did only fire out of the tubes in the direction of travel (both reasons are why Jenner-D pilots would sometimes "lead" their shot with streaks when fighting a Light who was moving perpendicular to them - Leading the shot made the streak appear in-front of the enemy and thus ensured that it's turning-circle allowed it to score a hit.


I'll keep on saying as long as there's a playerbase to say it to - the "fixing" of Streaks just as Closed beta ended was the most screwed-up breaking of them that was possible - Everything people decry about Streaks, Ravens, Streakboat Catapults - All of it was entirely caused by PGI's carelessness, a totally self-caused problem that is still waiting to be fixed.

This must have been where I got the idea that they had a min radius when I was in CB back in August. And I remember the change they made to streaks, along with a couple tweaks but wow. I should have said earlier along with everyone else. I didn't even realise until now (because I don't use them) and I always wondered if they were working as intended. Had to see it for myself to see them just plop out side ways from the launchers.
Heck, they fixed the LRMS so that they wouldn't come out at funny angles, why did they ignore the streaks?

Quote

- Fixed LRMs sometimes taking a sharp path after launching.

Source, Feb19th patch notes: http://mwomercs.com/game/patch-notes

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 04 March 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Streaks can not be fired at a greater than 45 degree angle to your target. That is the point where lock disengaged instantly.
What you are seeing is the weapon bay door delay + ping. So the player had already met all the correct criteria for firing it is just the missile launches that are delayed.

It is a aesthetic problem and I'll address it eventually but it's not top priority right now.

[EyeOne]

Can you make it 10 degrees or so? Please. Or reduce the range. Or require relock after shooting. Or copy the Streak mechanic from MW4 and MW2 (maybe MW3, I don't remember). Something needs to be done about Streaks.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

Wizard did it...


Or blame lag?

[Livebait]

Sorry, I don't buy that. If your saying it's a visual problem than the missiles are still broken.

IMO. The missiles are then moving way too fast. They should launch straight out of the launcher and then make a turn to the enemy. They also should have a limited fuel supply so that a fast light has time to run away while the missiles goes into acquisition phase. IMO it's broken,

[MoonUnitBeta]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 04 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Streaks can not be fired at a greater than 45 degree angle to your target. That is the point where lock disengaged instantly.
What you are seeing is the weapon bay door delay + ping. So the player had already met all the correct criteria for firing it is just the missile launches that are delayed.

It is a aesthetic problem and I'll address it eventually but it's not top priority right now.

So the reason why the change is not priority is because it’s just a visual look then?
Are other things being looked into like a minimum range of 10m before it being able to the take 45 degree turns, and/or turning radius going to be implemented later on?
The thing with 100% hits is that there’s no way to escape them, and that’s probably the most frustrating part. It’s already known the grief of them when coupled with ECM, but shouldn’t there be at least a skillful way to avoid them? Someway to at least force the pilot to keep the target within a certain cone or range; within that cone it IS 100% hit? Outside of that it gets progressively harder for the missile to keep up?

Agree / disagree?
What kind of approach would you / do you take?


[edit] I should really take this opportunity to thank you for your response.. So thank you It's great to hear from you guys.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 04 March 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[General Cheese]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 04 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Streaks can not be fired at a greater than 45 degree angle to your target. That is the point where lock disengaged instantly.
What you are seeing is the weapon bay door delay + ping. So the player had already met all the correct criteria for firing it is just the missile launches that are delayed.

It is a aesthetic problem and I'll address it eventually but it's not top priority right now.

Muahahahahaha!!! I knew streaks were fine!!

[Trauglodyte]

This happens with LRMs, too. The game doesn't take into account tube direction and, instead, allows the missile to fire from the base point of the weapon (ie, if it is the left torso but you're able to use your arms to target them to the right, it'll go through the mech's entire torso to fire). A PGI dev made a post a few weeks back that guided missile weapons (streaks and lrms) only have a 30 degree target lock "padding" to either side of its target. What they fail to realize, though, is if you have articulated arms, you can use them to expand your targetting allows and therefor abuse torso shielding and targetting. Its why it is possible for Commandos to fire Streaks at targets behind them because they use their arms to target, then get another 30 degrees, and then add in the stupid guided missile turn.

[General Taskeen]

There has to be more than a visual problem. I'm not sure if the Thomas is misunderstanding, but the missile itself has no minimum turn radius. You guys must know what people are saying. I mean even Paul played MW3.

It was stated way back in one of the patches when SSRMs went to "always 100% hit." I've fired SSRMs, as they are now, and watched them do 180 degree turns on someone's back armor. And that's on Mechs that don't have missile doors when firing.

I don't remember SSRMs ever having a turn radius, although apparently they did. At one point they definitely did not always hit based on "percentage" programming. You fired, and rolled a virtual dice in the game. I remember using one SSRM and both my missiles went left and right of a target, not even hitting it as it stood still (frustrating as hell). After that, the next patch made them 100% hit, which then changed to 100% hit, but LT, CT, LT. After that I saw hillarious instances where the missiles could sometimes ORBIT around a target until it hit, hilariously impossible turn angles, etc. Once the missile leaves your Mech it is fire and forget. Nobody wants the return of percentage programming. The randomness of Ultra jams is stupid enough.

Either the missile itself should only have small turning radius or change it so the user must maintain the pipper (not the huge circle) on the target.

Edited by General Taskeen, 04 March 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

General Cheese, on 04 March 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Muahahahahaha!!! I knew streaks were fine!!

well... not really. two small tweeks to the sSRM, and a pass over the ravens hitboxes, and you've made 20% more light mechs viable again... don't make ecm stack and you remove the 4man ecm packs. all those small simple changes collectively compliment other light mech viabilities. The frustrating part is that PGI ISN'T BETA TESTING such things to see what works. It takes months to actually see a change for an ancient old problem.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 04 March 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

General Taskeen, on 04 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

There has to be more than a visual problem. I'm not sure if the Thomas is misunderstanding, but the missile itself has no minimum turn radius. You guys must know what people are saying. I mean even Paul played MW3.

It was stated way back in one of the patches when SSRMs went to "always 100% hit." I've fired SSRMs, as they are now, and watched them do 180 degree turns on someone's back armor. And that's on Mechs that don't have missile doors when firing.

I don't remember SSRMs ever having a turn radius, although apparently they did. At one point they definitely did not always hit based on "percentage" programming. You fired, and rolled a virtual dice in the game. I remember using one SSRM and both my missiles went left and right of a target, not even hitting it as it stood still. After that, the next patch made them 100% hit, which then changed to 100% hit, but LT, CT, LT. After that I saw hillarious instances where the missiles could sometimes ORBIT around a target until it hit, hilariously impossible turn angles, etc. Once the missile leaves your Mech it is fire and forget.

They don't have a Kennedy "magic bullet" turn radius to the back armor. WHat you're seeing is an issue with hit locations and structure painting. If you look at the Cicada (you can pull up a pick from the new hero version) and you see the two antenna on top of the mech, because of how the locations were painted, if you hit those antenna, you're actually hitting the rear of the mech. So, the missiles don't miss and then pull a 180, they just hit a location that is on the rear of the mech even though they don't appear to be.

One issue that annoys me about Streaks is the concept that they don't always hit the torsos. If you're facing a target fact to face at 270m and fire your Streaks, those two missiles will hit any of the three torsos 100% of the time. They never hit the legs and will never hit the arms. The only time you can actually hit an arm with a Streak is when they turn and the missile's path takes them into the arms while locating to the torsos. 100% of the time straight to the torso while all other missiles can and will hit legs, head, and arms.

[Tuonela]

Currently the broken item in MWO isn't ECM, its streaks. Granted, streaks against a heavy or assault isn't a huge problem. They can be deadly, but it requires some time to whittle down a big mech.

On a light on light match, they're by far the most efficient and easy weapon to annihilate other non ECM/Streak mechs. There is literally NO escape or defense against streaks. Ravens and Commandos who carry them are 95% at top speed, which makes it impossible to outrun them. Streaks, especially with modules (and still even without modules), have a ridiculously fast lock on time that makes running behind buildings for momentary cover pointless. The second they come around that corner they're already locked on and firing. If you're engaged by a streak raven/commando, your only shot is to stand and fight (or if you have JJs jump up somewhere they can't follow), and since they're guaranteed to hit every shot you are at a severe disadvantage. Two evenly skilled pilots, the raven/commando ECM boat will win every time.

You can't even run counter streaks because their ECM nullifies it.

My suggestions for balancing:

Potential Streak updates:
1) Increase lock-on time
2) Require streaks to have line of sight to lock and maintain lock (no teammate target relaying work, like artemis)
3) Make streaks wire guided rather than lock on.

Potential ECM updates:
1) Within the confines of ECM (with counter mode) NO missiles can lock on. Make it a direct fire zone only. That would remove the imbalance that results from Raven's being able to fire streaks while preventing the other mech from doing so. You could still run streaks, but you'd have to turn off ECM to use them, giving the other mech the window to do so as well. A good pilot could still manipulate the ECM field to their advantage to turn it off at the right times.

[General Taskeen]

Trauglodyte, on 04 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

They don't have a Kennedy "magic bullet" turn radius to the back armor. WHat you're seeing is an issue with hit locations and structure painting. If you look at the Cicada (you can pull up a pick from the new hero version) and you see the two antenna on top of the mech, because of how the locations were painted, if you hit those antenna, you're actually hitting the rear of the mech. So, the missiles don't miss and then pull a 180, they just hit a location that is on the rear of the mech even though they don't appear to be.

What the hell are you smoking. In my example, I fired at a fast Light Mech that zoomed past me, My SSRMs fired forward then immediately turned 180 degrees on their back armor which showed up on their paper doll. You can not miss with an SSRM due to its programming.

Second, look at games like MW3 or MW:LL, fire SSRMs, a SRM with NARC tracking, or an LRM and you WILL miss more often, and nots due to an arbirtrary programming where "X Missiles have 75% hit rate". The missiles can not turn 180 degrees or do sharp 90 degree turns in an instant. Once they reach a maximum turn, they simply don't track anymore or slam into the ground.

[Asakara]

This would be better?

[MoonUnitBeta]

Asakara, on 04 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

This would be better?

It would be because my back was against a building.
Is it fair to rip around a corner unseen at 150kph and do a flyby 2 feet away from your target and spit out gauranteed damage?
I’m leaning to not… but who knows what they think at PGI.
I would like to see lights be a little more cautious about the sitations they put themselves in. I’d like to see them actually be hesitate to getting too close to targets, or in the thick of the fight. That really should be up to the heavies and assaults, while the lights are out scouting and regulating the battle…

But that’s just my feedback. If only it could be riding a streak towards PGI.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 04 March 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Tuonela, on 04 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Within the confines of ECM (with counter mode) NO missiles can lock on. Make it a direct fire zone only. That would remove the imbalance that results from Raven's being able to fire streaks while preventing the other mech from doing so. You could still run streaks, but you'd have to turn off ECM to use them, giving the other mech the window to do so as well. A good pilot could still manipulate the ECM field to their advantage to turn it off at the right times.

Which is what 3L and 2D pilots are doing already when fighting one another - shut down their ECM just long enough to fire their Streaks, yet not long enough to allow the enemy to lock on to them. How is that supposed to fix anything? All you do would be to add a mandatory push of a button to their "rotation".

Tuonela, on 04 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

You can't even run counter streaks because their ECM nullifies it.

This is the true gamebreaker here. If there's a weapon this efficient, at least allow everyone to use it - meaning, remove ECM's missile jam. Streaks are not affected by the Guardian-suite in Battletech's established background, anyways, and in deviating from this we got the mess we have now.
I guarantee you that many 3L pilots will join in to the protest once they get treated to their own medicine.

Ultimately, it is the Streak Missiles that are the problem - ECM merely makes it worse by monopolizing the advantage this weapon system currently holds. SSRMs were perfectly fine before the November patch "fixed" them; now the 5 points (per launcher) of guaranteed area-of-effect damage that these missiles deliver every 3.5 seconds to the small components of Light Battlemechs wreaks havoc on them.
I've since switched to a Centurion for as long as this issue persists, and I feel so much safer in there.

Asakara, on 04 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

This would be better?

Remove the last 5 arrows and you're there.

[Trauglodyte]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 04 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Streaks can not be fired at a greater than 45 degree angle to your target. That is the point where lock disengaged instantly. What you are seeing is the weapon bay door delay + ping. So the player had already met all the correct criteria for firing it is just the missile launches that are delayed. It is a aesthetic problem and I'll address it eventually but it's not top priority right now.

You're not supposed to answer the issue before I answer. IF you do, then I look silly or late or both.

[T Hawk]

Suki, on 02 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Raven 3L dominates the other lighst ONLY "because of ECM", because other lights can't do the same - use guided missiles against it.

As a fellow Spider pilot I call bull on this one.

Streaks are too strong and a nerf is required at this point.

PS: Also, they require zero skill to use, which is poison for this game as it caters to the noobs.

Edited by T Hawk, 04 March 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

General Taskeen, on 04 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

What the hell are you smoking. In my example, I fired at a fast Light Mech that zoomed past me, My SSRMs fired forward then immediately turned 180 degrees on their back armor which showed up on their paper doll. You can not miss with an SSRM due to its programming. Second, look at games like MW3 or MW:LL, fire SSRMs, a SRM with NARC tracking, or an LRM and you WILL miss more often, and nots due to an arbirtrary programming where "X Missiles have 75% hit rate". The missiles can not turn 180 degrees or do sharp 90 degree turns in an instant. Once they reach a maximum turn, they simply don't track anymore or slam into the ground.

Asakara, on 04 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

This would be better?

OK, you're not getting what I'm saying and a Dev has already addressed this in the past. The missile doesn't zoom past your target and then turn 180 degrees around and slam into the back of the mech. What happens is that the missile flies straight at your target and hits a piece of the mech that LOOKS like it should be the front but is, due to how they painted mechs in the design system, actually part of the rear of the mech. As I said, a good example is the two antenna on top of the Cicada. In this example, they look like they're part of the front but are actually painted as part of the back of the mech. SO, if you hit it with a missile, the paper doll will take damage to the rear of the mech. This is one of the reasons why the Raven is so damned maddening to kill because it has several locations painted to others.

Does that make better sense?

Edited by Trauglodyte, 04 March 2013 - 11:33 AM.