117 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Byk, on 03 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

The definition OP gives for what an ECM should do is the best one I've seen yet.

It's missing the adjustment to SSRMs (which are very overpowered, it just isn't as evident right now because the only things that can reliably use them are the things where ECM overshadows SSRMs)

Checkout this one. (Overhaul to everything ECM, and related.)

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles by 35% on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

AMS:
Increase effectiveness of AMS by 30% (AMS takes out 30% more missiles however they want to do that.)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.
Provides Detailed Target data. (weapon location)
Detects and differentiates False Positives generated by ECM ghost mode. (counters lock-time increase from ECM G-Mode)

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
Creates False Positive Targets (ghosts) on minimap that also increases lock-time of missiles in a "GHOST mode"
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM

Missiles:
Generate much less shake when receiving missile hits, but they are cumulative. (Getting hit by a couple of missiles gives you barely a twitch, getting hit by a bunch of missiles at once gives you a more violent rock.)

LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.3-1.5.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I propose a new laser.

Super Mega Laser

Does 25 damage. Generates no heat. Weighs 1.5 tons and takes 2 crit slots. Does not use a hard point. Has max range of 1500 meters. Fires purple beam. Can only be used on JR7-D, CLPT-A1, HBK-4SP, STK-5M and CTF-3D.

It will be fine because matchmaker will make sure there are an equal number on each team.

You thief.

[MustrumRidcully]

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I propose a new laser.

Super Mega Laser

Does 25 damage. Generates no heat. Weighs 1.5 tons and takes 2 crit slots. Does not use a hard point. Has max range of 1500 meters. Fires purple beam. Can only be used on JR7-D, CLPT-A1, HBK-4SP, STK-5M and CTF-3D.

It will be fine because matchmaker will make sure there are an equal number on each team.

The Clan Invasion will come soon enough already!

[Felicitatem Parco]

I say that EITHER:

• 1.5 tons should be as useful as 1.5 tons, especially since BAP and ECM cost the same number of C-Bills, too

OR

• if one of the 1.5 ton options is "better" than the others, then all Mechs should have equal access to it.

The reason I say this is because if only a few Mechs have access to the "best" 1.5 ton piece of equipment, then those mechs are technically better than the game's other Mechs.



It's like... would you rather play with Mario or Luigi if Mario was allowed to use Mushrooms and FireFlowers, while Luigi is not allowed to use Fireflowers (with no form of "boost" to compensate for the loss of Fireflower ability). The obvious answer is you would take Mario because Mario is flat-out better than Luigi..

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 March 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Livewyr]

Prosperity Park, on 03 March 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

It's like... would you rather play with Mario or Luigi if Mario was allowed to use Mushrooms and FireFlowers, while Luigi is not allowed to use Fireflowers (with no form of "boost" to compensate for the loss of Fireflower ability). The obvious answer is you would take Mario because Mario is flat-out better than Luigi..

You forgot Option C: Fix Mario so he isn't so overpowered.

(Otherwise you open the door for making all sorts of super-stupid things, as long as they're available to everyone. Ex: Look up my Magnetic Field Calibrator and Dense Fog Generator equipment..they're in a number of different threads and just as real as MWO's "Guardian ECM")

[Targetloc]

I like the OP's idea.

ECM is just too powerful as it is.

[Thorn Hallis]

Prosperity Park, on 03 March 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

It's like... would you rather play with Mario or Luigi if Mario was allowed to use Mushrooms and FireFlowers, while Luigi is not allowed to use Fireflowers (with no form of "boost" to compensate for the loss of Fireflower ability). The obvious answer is you would take Mario because Mario is flat-out better than Luigi..

Depends on what Fireflowers exactly do.

[Hawks]

The fact that PGI made ECM do more things than it should, while making AMS do fewer things than it should, is possibly the greatest troll ever.

[Felicitatem Parco]

My Mario/Luigi thing was meant to mimic the hypothetical situation of choosing a Mech that can or can't mount ECM... so, that's why I didn't say "fix Mario," it was meant to represent what users currently face in the Mechlab among Light Mechs.

And AMS does more now than it did in TT, I think... any friendly AMS will shoot at any hostile missile that's inside the AMS's range envelope, even if those missiles are going to someone else, or even dumbfire and pointed out into the distance... if a Jenner with AMS sneaks up behind enemy Missile Support, then the Jenner's AMS will shoot down a ton of those missiles that are being trained on the Jenner's allies half a kilo away.

I just wish that ECM wasn't as either OP/ton, or so restricted in deployment options. It makes me think that the non-ECM Mechs are second-class Mechs.

Either making ECM less effective/ton, or expanding its availability would greatly please me.

[Hawks]

Prosperity Park, on 03 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

And AMS does more now than it did in TT, I think... any friendly AMS will shoot at any hostile missile that's inside the AMS's range envelope

That's true actually. I'm still not convinced that it's doing anything against SRMs or Streaks, though, despite what some people said in my other thread on the subject.

[Mystere]

Will these ECM threads ever end?

Edited by Mystere, 03 March 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Doc Holliday]

Mystere, on 03 March 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Will these ECM threads ever end?

Not until PGI fixes ECM.

[Hedonism Robot]

ECM is OP currently but its due to AMS being really bad. If I could make changes for next patch I would make BAP counter the AOE jamming under 180 meters of ecm (basically always counting as an ECM is counter mode). I would remove counter mode from ecm, this way chassis without streak SRMS with ecm would stand a chance in a duel. I would also buff the effects of AMS vs all short range missiles. (reduce splatcat dmg against players with AMS and be effective against people loading up on streaks).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Not until PGI fixes ECM.

Actually I disagree.

These threads will continue to occur until the devs ADDRESS ECM fully.

If the devs come out and say "We like ECM, we are adjusting A/B/C a bit, but otherwise it's done", that will settle it and people who don't like ECM can suck it up and move on.

If they come out and say "We see the views on ECM being overpowered and are planning to adjust it to be in line with the original intentions in the Battletech/Mechwarrior universe", then the people who follow overpowered items will move onto the next one and the ECM haters can start enjoying the game.

But the devs keep dancing around it like freakin' Chris Brown (yup, they treat us like Rhianna), so we see a ton of threads like this.

[Mystere]

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Not until PGI fixes ECM.

But, I personally do not consider it as so broken that it warrants all this endless crying. Heck, I have no problem dealing with it and in fact have specialized in killing anyone I see carrying them. So why can't others just do the same and move on, enjoy, whatever?

[Ari Dian]

ECM is so damm overpowered because LRM and SSRM are way to strong.

I see it in every match when we dont have a ECM. LRM waves over waves.

Fixing the ECM only lead back to the LRM storm times. But sadly PGI found it easier to "fix" the LRMs by adding an overpowered ECM. Really smart.....

Yes, ECM is way to strong, doing way to much, and it is overpowered (everyone who deny this must be blind). But the problem has to be fixed on the root. And this is the LRMs and SSRMs.

Easiest fix for the ECM would be to work on both sides. If it deny the use of SSRMs, it should deny it for all.

[Ialti]

WolvesX, on 03 March 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

BAP

AMS

ECM

1.5 tons, 2 slots!

Greetings fellow BETA Testers!

BAP = 25% increased target range, 25% faster information, detect shutdown mechs under 120m

AMS = Shot down 1-8 LRM, 0-3 SSRM

ECM = Well, as there is no discussion about its OPness anymore I'm going to skip this part.

---

ECM should be = decrease the range your mech is targetable by 25%, 25% slower information from you, can not be detected when you are shut down. Every mech should be able to get it.

That is the fair solution.

---

PROS: more mechs would be viable. Game would be more fun.

CONS: You can't drive your L3 with closed eyes anylonger.

---

Posting your opinion keeps the discussion alive.

I refuse. No useful comments from me, if you want them, read the other ones I made on the last fifty ECM pages. Thanks, and have a nice day.

[Livewyr]

Prosperity Park, on 03 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

My Mario/Luigi thing was meant to mimic the hypothetical situation of choosing a Mech that can or can't mount ECM... so, that's why I didn't say "fix Mario," it was meant to represent what users currently face in the Mechlab among Light Mechs.

And AMS does more now than it did in TT, I think... any friendly AMS will shoot at any hostile missile that's inside the AMS's range envelope, even if those missiles are going to someone else, or even dumbfire and pointed out into the distance... if a Jenner with AMS sneaks up behind enemy Missile Support, then the Jenner's AMS will shoot down a ton of those missiles that are being trained on the Jenner's allies half a kilo away.

I just wish that ECM wasn't as either OP/ton, or so restricted in deployment options. It makes me think that the non-ECM Mechs are second-class Mechs.

Either making ECM less effective/ton, or expanding its availability would greatly please me.

I suppose I should've clarified;
by fix Mario, I meant: Fix what makes mario so over powered compared to the others.
The overpowering abilities he would get compared to the others where winning the race/challenge/battle more often than not depends on who has mario(s exclusive overpowered abilities.)

[Tie Ma]

How else are we supposed to balance items? By c-bills? Lol

No other logical way to do it

[Royalewithcheese]

I think that from a broader perspective "information warfare" shouldn't be based on hard counters, which is IMO sort of the problem with ECM right now. You either have the problem where the hard counter is too good (ECM vs. SSRMs without ECM support) or the problem where the hard counter is too situational to work well (PPC vs. ECM).

I think a lot of ECM issues would be solved if, for instance, it slowed vs. blocked SSRM locks, and BAP increased detection range against ECM-equipped mechs. But it would also be cool if BAP had a point in the first place - I'm yet another fan of the 120-meter detection bubble that is blocked by ECM, because then ppl would actually have a reason to run BAP.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 03 March 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Tie Ma]

Kassatsu, on 03 March 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Matchmaker needs to take ECM into consideration, should be an equal number on each team, and yes that means a D-DC might be matched up against a Commando, but that's already happening anyways.

Other than that, people just need to learn how to effectively counter it, even without the hard counters PGI keeps adding to the

ECM needs to be treated like a chassis of its own. For 1.5 tons the whole matchmaker needs to be balanced aroud it.


Other than that this argument is cery logical and ECM is not OP at all /endsarcasm