498 replies to this topic

[Hawkeye 72]

Norris J Packard, on 04 March 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

The Current Timetable:

March: JagerMech
April: Highlander
May: Flea
June: BlackJack
July: Orion
August: <Unannounced Assault Mech>
September: Clan Light Development
October: Clan Medium Development
November: Clan Heavy Development
December: Clan Assault Development

Because PGI seems either unable, or unwilling, to get back to a two Mechs per month timetable, it will inevitably be the end of the year or the beginning of next year before there is even a chance of Clan Mechs being added. This is of course assuming absolutely zero delays. Now the problem with this is that unlike the previous timetable, it takes place over a four month period. Which means, because this is supposed to emulate Closed Beta they must release the first four Clan Mechs at the same time. Otherwise there won't be enough Mechs to fit the individual weight classes, thus you probably won't be able to drop with them properly if we assume that the Clan Faction is added at the same time.This is a huge problem. Imagine playing MWO for four Months, with zero content real being added (except for four Hero Mechs) because PGI does not predict that they will have Community Warfare out until several months after Open Beta is done, which should be around the Summer Time.

This means that in all likelihood, Community Warfare will not be added until the end of the year either. Now this might not seem like a big deal to you, but back in Closed Beta, the delay of the Raven being nearly one month caused a lot of players to stop playing. At the end of the day, the primary content of MWO is the Mechs. Not the paint, not the camo, not the stupid lights in our cockpits. It is the primary content and primary attraction of MechWarrior Online. Without Mechs, there is no game. If PGI stops putting out any new Mechs for four Months, I wholly expect that there will be a repeat of the Raven debacle but on a scale that is many times worse. And since they don't appear to have any plans to circumvent this, I must assume that MechWarrior is basically doomed to being a dead game by the end of the year. Despite what some people with Founders next to their names say, a few hundred people playing does not equate a game with a healthy playerbase. Finally, I'd absolutely love to be wrong. I'd love to play with the Clan Mechs, I'd love for there to be no content drought, but I honestly don't think I will be wrong.

I'll make a serious post in this thread now. Plus one for the well-articulated and logical argument. Going back to what can really be called a counter-thread to this thread, where I pointed out the massive lapses/increase in mech development time, we can make two conjectures about what PGI is doing:

1) They did double up mech production in secret and thus there won't be a four month drought in content. The numbers support this as the time in mech production has doubled.
2) They are actually well behind in content production (much like the Raven and Cicada delay) and we won't see Clan mechs until later this year. The increase in time is due to development struggles, not a grander scheme. Once again my numbers also support your stance as well.

While todays March Developer Update was a bit underwhelming (then again, and big surprises wouldn't be announced in a mere developer update), the next 2-3 months will end up proving one of us correct.

Me? I'm optimistic (though a bit fanatical) that we will see something happen here. Mostly because I hate to see the reaction of the community if we don't have Clan mechs this Spring in some capacity. I hope PGI does surprise us.

In the event they don't, I opt for a timeline reset, because this spring (i.e. the start of the invasion) was really a golden opportunity as far as gaming goes to deliver a really cool experience (i.e. the random insertion of Clan mechs into select matches). I understand the complexity of such a feature, but its not impossible. Two benefits to a timeline delay?
1) Gives the game time to fully implement its features/bugs/content before a major change in the game.
2) Satisfies those individuals who wanted to duke it out IS vs IS for a year.

(And no this is not me abandoning my conspiracy thread! I still adhere to it! But I am smart enough an individual to recognize the flaws in my own argument and recognize some of the merits in yours.)

[Norris J Packard]

I will get back the rest of the posts in these threads later tonight/tomorrow morning.

I am feeling extremely tired and don't think I can continue to properly articulate myself.

Plus, I got things to do.

[Agent of Change]

For the new folks to this thread who have clearly not paid attention to either the OP or the quite civil conversation we were having several pages ago, I know it can be difficult to go through 20+ pages of a thread so let me catch you up on a point you may have missed (page 11 or 12 or so):

I said:

Agent of Change, on 04 March 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Norris,

You've definitely put together a number of pieces for your theory and have certainly put some work into it, I believe that IF your assumptions are all correct you are likely within 90+% of the truth. Given the information available to us your assumptions are among a number that are entirely reasonable to make, if on the more pessimistic side, but still entirely reasonable.

However, if we were to take a slightly different tack on this (a more optimistic look if you will) lets modify one or two assumptions and see where that takes us:

Modified Assumptions:

• Concurrent Clan-Mech development - This one was already posed earlier in the thread they may well have slowed down in the actual release of Mechs but are in fact currently working a stable of mechs (including clans mechs) well in advance of their release to create a back log the can draw on when shifting resources to other aspects. Potential Result: Clan Mech dump sooner than later.
  
• CW Development - based on assumed manpower limitations it could very well be that focus has been on creating, finalizing, and preparing for a CW release which has sapped resources from Mech development slowing down Mech releases. Potential Result: CW sooner Clan mechs delayed.
  
• Mechs are the Primary Content - Assume that for many players new mechs are not why they log in, but new maps, game modes, skills, modules, improved matchmaking, and CW. I speak for myself and say that if they keep any combination of the previously mention game elements coming steadily in the updates I could go several months without any new mechs, (hell to be honest none of the announced mechs hold any interest to me so i'll be playing without new mechs for months anyway). The law of averages says neither of us are likely to be unique in our approach to what brings us to the game, so the question becomes which viewpoint is closer to the majority you assumed yours, however if it becomes mine the game could sustain the delays so long as there is something forthcoming. Potential result: Gaming population takes some hit for a delayed mech drop for clans but is mostly intact game survives and get a massive influx when clan mechs are announced.

Now I was back in CB and I have seen with no small amount of frustration the missed deadlines, the flubbed communication, and the apparent backsliding on "pillars of gameplay". I have also seen leaps forward recently and while the Devs definitely have an image issue when it comes to self imposed deadlines it should also be pointed out that if the devs don't follow to the letter exactly what they tell us they tend to get burned in effigy here on the forums which isn't exactly fair. So in some sense pulling back on specifics and what they tell us is just a reasonable play on their part, is it a good one... i can't say.

That said the raven incident you refer to and the exodus (temporarily) of players was also during a period where nothing was released, no maps, modules, nadda, nothing. So yeah we can expect people to wander off I'm not sure that is the best example to hold up in light of the fact that we are getting content just not mechs rapidly.

All in all you gave us something to think about so thanks for that.

To which he replied:

Norris J Packard, on 04 March 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Agent, I do appreciate your response (really), I don't really have much to say to your post other than that is a fair analyses, that I would like to be wrong, and what you say is a possibility. Maybe PGI's just been lying. Maybe they really do have something going on, it is possible.

Which was then part of a larger discourse.

The long and the short of it is it was well thought out and proposed but is based on fairly negative assumptions which Norris by his post both conceded and states that he doesn't want his particular analysis to be accurate. For those keeping score The OP has both stated that HE is not 100% right because you can't really be and he doesn't want to be. But the fact that his assumptions in the OP are possible is on it's face a little disturbing and warranted a conversation.

So not just bitching, not a "Clans aren't here", simply a debate about the speculation of the known unknowns about the progress MWO is or is not making and how it will affect the release of new content into the game.

[Jacmac]

Norris J Packard, on 04 March 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

If we assume even mid-summer, and a minimum of three months, it means that it'll be October-November before it is in the game.

If past history is any indication, Beta will end around September 20th at the very end of what can be called Summer.

[Chemie]

Norris J Packard, on 04 March 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

Alt. Maps don't count as new maps in my eyes and many others.

I do not count them either. We have 4 maps from CB and one new map since October! One map every 6 months does not cut it.

[KharnZor]

Chemie, on 04 March 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

I do not count them either. We have 4 maps from CB and one new map since October! One map every 6 months does not cut it.

Same here.

[ChrisOrange]

Tichorius Davion, on 04 March 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

You say that Mechs are the heart of this game, but the soul is Community Warfare. For all we know a lot of resources could be devoted to making CW at this very moment.

No I think mechs are more important and above that even would be maps.

Why would you want to put all of your eggs in the community warfare basket? It seems like a LOT of people are doing that and it's just a bad idea. If you like the game then play the game but don't hold out for your idealized vision of CW.

I think a lot of people are setting themselves up for disappointment. What happens if CW hits and you're like "well this is KIND of interesting but not for me." It's no way to play games believing and hoping that the game company will fix all of your personal problems and there's no way for them to cater to everyone.

So all I'm saying is hope CW is great but it might not be great for you so just enjoy the game regardless. I think a lot of people will quit because CW didn't meet some IMPOSSIBLE standard that they set in their minds. I'm cautiously optimistic...if CW sucks then I don't care because the game will probably still be fun anyway.

Edited by ChrisOrange, 04 March 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[ciller]

sandshrew, on 04 March 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Man, there are some rustled jimmies in here.

Question: how is the "it's just beta!" argument supposed to work when they're already charging real-world money for things?

This is your second post ever? Your future does not look bright here. How many times do we have to listen to this ridiculous argument? Certainly no more then the few hundred times I've read it here before.

Go read through the many threads and posts that address this issue because as it stands it is an invalid argument that brings nothing to the table and doesn't really address the real issues with their money use and has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. I am sick of the "its not beta, they are taking money" posts. Go start another thread whinging about it already.

UGH!!!

[LaserAngel]

Jacmac, on 04 March 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

If past history is any indication, Beta will end around September 20th at the very end of what can be called Summer.

My own personal timeline based on roadmaps from November/December would have had Open Beta starting in February/March and then CW in the September/October range.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Norris, the map making process WAS taking months, but they even stated part of that was the lack of ready made assets in the engine, something that they are gradually getting 'fixed' as they create the assets they need/want and add them to their library. Anyone who's ever created a map that wasn't using ONLY what comes with the engine knows this is a time consuming process. I frequently had to create my own models and textures when creating maps for various Quake engines used in different games, such as Tribes 2. We had a limited number of pre-made objects in the game, anything else we had to make ourselves from the ground up...which is what they are having to do at PGI for everything in the game, which is a hell of a lot of stuff to create models for, make the appropiate mappings, get the texturing done, and so on..it's a lot of work and it takes time..

Once it's done though, map making becomes a much more streamlined process, and it would appear that the folks at PGI have been busy, as it would seem we're getting the new map this month,

http://mwomercs.com/...irector-update/

Seems to indicate we'll get Tourmaline Desert in March, so much for the maps now taking 3 months or more...

We've had other content added to the game during the same time frame that they've added Mechs, a map, various pieces of equipment, on top of their work in the progress on the Match Maker system. That's a lot of work for a small group, but they seem to be keeping it up and even stepping it up a bit here lately, amazing what happens when you start getting all your assets created and start to know the engine you are dealing with better and better...

As for the dearth of new Mechs when they start on the Clan Mechs...you really don't know much about BTech do you? No need to answer, you've already made clear that you really don't have much background in BTech, and that's fine, but it also leaves you open to making such grand sweeping statements that have no basis in fact.

Most Clan Mechs are nothing but revamped existing IS Mechs. Take the Timberwolf for example, one of the iconic Mechs for the video game fans. Look at it..and you'll quickly understand why the IS designation is MadCat, it's a cross between a Marauder and a Catapult, both in it's weapons load AND in it's actual physical design. So, making a Timberwolf is really REALLY complicated.

You take a Catapult, you attach some arms from a Cataphract to it, and hey, look there, you've got a Timberwolf chassis. Now, a few tweaks to the model's structure, especially the cockpit, which BTW, is fracking HUGE on a Timberwolf(Clans, they don't mind sticking it out like that), alter the hardpoints to fit the OmniMech system, polish up the animations and boom, done. Takes a lot less time and a lot less people to do the work because you don't have to create every single piece of the model from the ground up..again. And most of the Clan Mechs are that easy to create, use existing models and pieces and tweak them as needed. You can actually see they are already doing that with the Mechs we have ingame...personally, I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that various Mechs are already 'built' in the engine and are just waiting for the final say on what hardpoints they get and final approval of the artwork before they go to the closed testing group.

The same is probably true of maps, since we JUST got Alpine and it's supposed to take them so many months to make a new one, yet we've got Tourmaline Desert coming a month after Alpine.

It's funny Norris, when you get started on a software project, it can take a while to get up to speed on everything, but once you get the hang of it and get your assets lined up, it goes much smoother. Ask any mod team, slow to start at first, but as you get familiar with the system you are working with and get your custom assets created, it goes so much smoother and faster.

[Dirus Nigh]

Last month the trebuchet and an awesome hero mech was released. This month the jeagger mech and a cicada hero mach are being released. That is two mechs for two months. What exactly is the OP's problem?

Ashnod's first post in this thread is along the same lines of my thoughts on mech releases.

PGI will want to have a full collection of clan mechs for us to get out collective butts kicked by when the invasion begins. I am going to go out on a limb as suppose they will want 3 mech chassis per weight class with 3 variants. This will match up nicely with the IS mechs that will be up and running by the time the clan invasion starts.

This is just supposition mind you, but I feel that it is at least a good guess as to what PGI is doing.

As far as I'm concerned we have a large assortment of mechs that give a wide range of customization. Having more would be nice, but at this point it really comes down to aesthetic preference rather than the full capability of any given chassis. The game has 14 mechs with 3-5 variants each. In addition we have 6 hero mechs. That is quite the number of mechs for players to chose from. Yet you the OP are criticizing PGI and saying they are not doing a good enough job?

What exactly do you expect from PGI? Do you really think that you need two mechs a month? Do you really think that the game is unplayable unless PGI constantly releases mechs? How does the current mech release detract from the game? There are well over a hundred mechs in the battletech game. Why do you feel you need them all right now?

[Watchit]

I'm actually glad the clan invasion won't be coming when we expect it, that'd be too boring. Everyone just needs to chill and go with it. It's not like there's never been a delayed game before, we're just experiencing it in real time...

[Protection]

Protection, on 04 March 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

Dude, dude,

Think of it this way:

Mechwarrior: Online probably isn't the one. She's not the girl you're destined to be with. Maybe you thought she might be when you first heard about her, and even after your first impressions, but at some point you maybe started to realize that this isn't going to last forever. And now that you're realizing that, you're worried, and you're searching for problems -- problems that may or may not exist and that you have little to no control over and no power to change.

So just let her be. If you want to move on now, that's totally up to you. Otherwise you can stay with her for the time being and just accept her for who she is. It wont last forever - it can't. But for the time being, she's pretty special, she reminds you of someone you loved long ago and haven't seen in many years, and she's fun. She is working on some really amazing ideas -- no idea whether or not they will work or ever even be finished, but maybe you want to try and see it through with her.

Just relax and enjoy the ride. Enjoy the time you spend together with her now, and let the future unfold as it will. Maybe it'll all be over in a year. Maybe it'll last for another five. But it's up to you to enjoy the time that you have together. And if you can't enjoy it, then maybe she's not for you at all.

Well I take it all back.

I just caught her whooring herself out to a bunch of MC-only guys so she can go get high on large coolant flushes.

She's a dirty whoore and will do anything for money. Don't trust her whoore lies. I cared about her, but I wont be paying for her coolant addiction.

(seriously, this is pay 2 win ******** - I'm with Norris and rooting against this game if it doesn't change its ways)

* w-h-o-r-e spelled as whoore to evade censorship

[DarkBazerker]

I don't see what the big deal is. All this means is we have to wait a little longer.

[Lajur Kas]

Change the date to March 3049.

[Damocles69]

i love sad clamers

[Volume]

Norris J Packard right as usual I see.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Protection, on 04 March 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Well I take it all back.

I just caught her whooring herself out to a bunch of MC-only guys so she can go get high on large coolant flushes.

She's a dirty whoore and will do anything for money. Don't trust her whoore lies. I cared about her, but I wont be paying for her coolant addiction.

(seriously, this is pay 2 win ******** - I'm with Norris and rooting against this game if it doesn't change its ways)

* w-h-o-r-e spelled as whoore to evade censorship

Sorry Protection, but I and others have been sayin' this for some time now. In a way, it's sad to see people's eyes finally coming wide open when I was one of the ones tryin' to wake people up, considering how it's happening.

FFS, I've been tellin' people PGI isn't trustworthy, and crap like this provin' me right when I'd MUCH rather be WRONG?

...

Yeah. Really bloody HATE bein' right sometimes.

[CutterWolf]

This is your mech content bottleneck right here:

"2 Modellers, 2 Animators, 1 Concept Artist, 1 Texture Artist"

When I worked for Mektek on Mech packs 1-4 as a texture artist we had up to 6 Texture artist's, 4 to 5 Modellers, and 4 to 5 Concept artist which is the reason we could push out mechs so fast. Having just 1 texture artist is a HUGE bottleneck for the amount of work that needs to be done to complete just one Mech skin/texture.

[Thirdstar]

CutterWolf, on 04 March 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

This is your mech content bottleneck right here:

"2 Modellers, 2 Animators, 1 Concept Artist, 1 Texture Artist"

When I worked for Mektek on Mech packs 1-4 as a texture artist we had up to 6 Texture artist's, 4 to 5 Modellers, and 4 to 5 Concept artist which is the reason we could push out mechs so fast. Having just 1 texture artist is a HUGE bottleneck for the amount of work that needs to be done to complete just one Mech skin/texture.

But clearly they've just found magic free time to develop Clan mechs in secret. Because.