497 replies to this topic

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Tichorius Davion, on 05 March 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Who said that they will even work like that?
They released details on how Coolant Specifically works in regard to their tiers.
The Mechanics of how you use tiered airstrikes can be completely different.
Tell me right the [Redacted] now how each tier of an airstrike works and how they work in conjunction with each other.

You have all the discernative powers of a frog. Forget it. I wasted enough of my time trying to educate and enlighten you already.

[DEN_Ninja]

Tarman, on 05 March 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

On this we agree. I've gotten my money's worth from this game if it gets erased tomorrow.

But I'd also like to be playing this a year from now, and not by purchasing my match's worth of MC consumables just to stay even. It's the reveal of this model combined with their past performance that's the kicker. It's a bad precedent mixed with a poor track record, and PGI is not super trustworthy to do things even in their best interests. They still have time to undo it as a way forward but they've already chased off some players with this badwill stunt whether they follow through or ditch it completely. And I can't see them releasing this in this manner "just because". If it wasn't a plan then it's just poosticking the playerbase, and that makes even less sense than a p2w model being in the works.

This is beyond the flip caused by ECM or even the 3L. This is PGI testing us to see just how much money we're willing to pony up to fight giant robots after telling us that it wasn't what they were going to do. I'm not willing to play in a game model that encourages me to buy my way to victory. I left STO for exactly that reason, though my access to power was provided by a wealthy fleet leader and not my personal cash. It's not fun that way even when you're winning.

My honest opinion of this is that I blame the publisher and not the developer. The 'relationship' between IGP and PGI was described as something strenuous. IGP is the investor and they are the ones that want to make the money out if it. PGI is made of fans too, they like to play MWO when they aren't busy making it. As fans to fans they should understand that.

I've always blamed the Activision-Vivendi merger for the latest poor works of Blizz Entertainment. I dislike how EA pressures their signed developing studies to add in things like micro-transactions(Deadspace)

PGI is not fully free to make their own say in things since IGP has their nose in it. Unlike games such as Minecraft or Space Citizen that were funded by the people and developed solely by the make.

Addendum: Example; Diablo III is the Product of Blizzavision's push to get a cash cow game out since WoW has been on a spiraling downward curve. The original developers from Diablo II didn't even work on it or didn't like the product but they don't have a say since their parent company is ultimately Blizzavision. That's how that surat [Redacted] got lead designer for Diablo III for kissing *** to the want of cash cow game.

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 05 March 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Cpt Leprechaun]

Holy Hell PGI/IGP WTF are you thinking !?!?!? if this is implemented say goodbye to all your hopes for this game, for they are lost. Not spending another cent on this game. Was going to buy the X-5 Too but I would rather not waste my money if this is going to happen.

[DEN_Ninja]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 05 March 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

You have all the discernative powers of a frog. Forget it. I wasted enough of my time trying to educate and enlighten you already.

What? You have no response? No witty tree remarks? Did a tree fall on you in your forest and no one was around to care?

You have no fracking proof that airstrikes or any other consumables to come will be over powered, pay to win, or unbalanced. PGI has stated they want competitive play. They would have to keep the game balanced. The only have released information on a single type of consumable and nothing else.

Give me even a hint of hard evidence of a golden bullet in the form of Air Assets on a battlefield.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Cpt Leprechaun, on 05 March 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Holy Hell PGI/IGP WTF are you thinking !?!?!? if this is implemented say goodbye to all your hopes for this game, for they are lost. Not spending another cent on this game. Was going to buy the X-5 Too but I would rather not waste my money if this is going to happen.

Wallets speak louder than words. We can only hope a compromise is reached before the 19th. My thought is add an MC cost to the Tier 1 & 2 Consumables, and a CB cost to the Tier 3. Both sides should be able to walk away happy with that, I should think.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 05 March 2013 - 05:33 AM.

[BrianMMXII]

Signed, this cant happen I dont wanna quit this game, but I will not buy more MC until this is addressed

[Enig]

The Cheese, on 04 March 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

L1 and 2 coolant pods are stackable when you use one of each. You can't install more than one of each kind.

L3 pods are not stackable with other L3 pods or otherwise.

IE: You can have a single L1 pod and a single L2 pod together, but you can't use a L3 with either of them. L3 pods can only be used on their own.

And the T3 is only one module slot!

If they were identical for Cbill and MC it would be different. Also they lied to us. Check my sig.

[Armando]

Kassatsu, on 05 March 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

If you want to take it to such ridiculous extremes and ignore the entire point, well... I'll assume you have a job. You got to work just fine yesterday, right? What about the next time? Or the time after that? You might get in a car accident. You might survive that, but what about the next one?

My point was this is simply the first step to a full on pay to win cash shop, and I have never seen a game pull a move like this and then NOT become P2W.

Also I'm pretty sure my heart rate has remained the same and the only thing I've done is post on the forum since then, so I'm not really getting "worked up", nor do I need to chill out. You're not my bro either.

and the point that getting worried and worked up over something that is not in the game, and 'might', just 'might' not be as bad as you 'assume' (think, speculate) it is, could be, in real life, bad for you (your health)...you got that, you understand the point?

On second though, what do I care (it makes no difference to me) if some of you give yourselves an ulcer, stroke, or heart attack. You are going to do (or not do) what you want. Your mind is clearly made up on the subject, nothing I or anyone else can say is going to change it. Enjoy! :-)

As for the 'point':

Don't get it twisted...this doesn't sound 'good' to me either, but you can be sure I am going to wait until I have used it (or at LEAST seen it used) before I can (or would even TRY to) provide useful feedback.

[Drexorn]

I don't think these 3 new consumables are p2w. It's more like p2(get a small advantage). I just don't like the idea about consumables at all - cbill or MC. I'd much rather slot artillery strike, as a 6mill cbill module (maybe in coordination with command console, c3, etc..), that can be used once per match.

I understand the need for a money sink, but do you honestly think the mc-only versions of these are going to be that popular? I freely spend spend mc on premium time, mech bays, and a few hero mechs. I'm cheap though, and won't even spend mc on paint schemes, let alone a consumable.

I think these mc-only consumables are not going to sell well at all.

Edited by Drexorn, 05 March 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Mr G]

Stonefalcon, on 04 March 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

From what I've seen sofar Protection (And I've been offline last 2 weeks) is that the Teir 1 and 2 modules effects together equal the effect of the Teir 3 module. Keep in mind that you aren't going to run all the Teir 3 modules, that's just trying to overspecialise and doomed for failure. Also something like the coolant flush isn't entirely useful in such a large dose and better used in small doses, first thing I thought when looking at the percentages was that I don't want to reduce my heat temporarily by 35%, the 15 or 20 are more than enough to get me out of a bind.

I do agree with you whole heartedly about this P2W scheme PGI seems to be running. They've made changes to dumb down the game, destroyed a great opportunity to revive a franchise in all it's glory and then resort to a P2W model to encourage money from players.

It's just plain painful to see it. I just hope PGI sees a voice of reason instead of looking at dollar signs otherwise we'll see most of the comminity jump ship and that's the last thing I want to see. Imagine 10 years from now on wikipedia. "MechWarrior Online. Last attempt to revive a great franchise, ended in disaster when developers tried to suck too much money from a devoted community".

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again here, unless things improve and they see the light they ain't getting more money from me.

Obviously you are missing something. How many people really benefit from current modules?

streak an LRM users get a A some life out of target decay, but you don't need to have a mech targeted to be able to see it and since most people use direct dumbfire weapons mostly useless.

target info is nice since it speeds up display of damage, but if you've been shooting that mech in the CT repeatedly already you should probably just continue doing that.

Capture accelerator? Maybe if capping is your main strat, but generally most people like to blow up other mechs.

advanced sensor range? You don't need to be able to target a mech to be able to see it and generally there is enough ECM around to negate that anyway. again basically only good for streaks and LRMs.

360 target pointless. really pointless.

Don't even get me started on advanced zoom.

Ok now let's just look at what the new consumables give you.

Coolant flush, every mech can make use of this. and you are better off blowing it one time for a major effect. Why? because it gives you more heat to work with. the 15 percent one will give you maybe a single weapon group firing before you're at the point where you need to wait for heat to go down again. The 20 percent one might give you two followed by an over heat.

the single 35 percent one? That one lets you spam your weapons and then bring your heat instantly into line with someone who had been using fire discipline to keep his heat down. Meaning now not only have you had a lot more shots down field in a shorter time, but you can still keep firing when normally you'd be powered down or taking internal damage from overridding. Meaning that anyone using these coolant flush consumables has a huge firepower advantage over someone who doesn't and the person that blows both smaller at the same time or the single larger flush have an advantage over those who try to spread out the useage of the two smaller ones.

Add to that the higher level artillery and air strikes and hopefully now you start to see why the MC only ones are so much better.

let's say both guys are using the same mech with 4 mod slots. guy one has coolant 1 and 2 as well as air strike 2 and arty 2.
He isn't over specalized. His mech still does what his mech does. Hell if he's a brawler and he takes both types of strikes all he has done is made his mech better all around because now he has ranged area of effect damage.

Now the second guy has coolant 3, air 3, arty 3 and an extra slot left over for say target info, sensor range or some random mod he thinks is useful. Guess what? Not only does his two ranged Area of effect attacks do more damage/ have a wider area/ duration/ whatever the benefit is. He has had room for an extra mod slot. Guess which one has more firepower and brings more to his teams table? But it's a small advantage and only one guy has it...

Now imagine 8 of guy #2 vs a team of 8 guy #1s. Who do you think now has to work a lot harder for the win? Who do you think now is the favored to win even if ELO says they are evenly matched?

[Cpt Leprechaun]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 05 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Wallets speak louder than words. We can only hope a compromise is reached before the 19th. My thought is add an MC cost to the Tier 1 & 2 Consumables, and a CB cost to the Tier 3. Both sides should be able to walk away happy with that, I should think.

indeed I agree with this

[Tarman]

Tichorius Davion, on 05 March 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

My honest opinion of this is that I blame the publisher and not the developer. The 'relationship' between IGP and PGI was described as something strenuous. IGP is the investor and they are the ones that want to make the money out if it. PGI is made of fans too, they like to play MWO when they aren't busy making it. As fans to fans they should understand that.

I've always blamed the Activision-Vivendi merger for the latest poor works of Blizz Entertainment. I dislike how EA pressures their signed developing studies to add in things like micro-transactions(Deadspace)

PGI is not fully free to make their own say in things since IGP has their nose in it. Unlike games such as Minecraft or Space Citizen that were funded by the people and developed solely by the make.

Yeah, I'm not pinning this on PGI wholly, IGP does seem to deserve a lot of the flak as they are the moneyguys. That still doesn't help the game be any better though. Dead game is dead game no matter who kills it. If this is the way forward I will drop it, as sad a panda as that would make me because I have been giant roboting in battlemechs since cardfold Unseen stuck in plastic nubbies and lined-paper stat sheets (OMG THE CIRCLES OOOOOOOOO). I'm a big Star Trek fan too, but not enough to shell out major cash or ride someone else's dime to the detriment of literally everyone I faced. It eventually made me feel dirty that my game power was fueled in a good portion by influxes of actual cash; worse that it wasn't even mine. Like being a made-man gangster beating up gradeschoolers.

The most ridiculous part is that if PGI were left to their own devices I think that the game wouldn't have nearly the issues it currently deals with. This IP could make them money completely without using p2w methods.

[Belorion]

Couple things that your stance isn't taking into account.

1. There is only an advantage when compairing mechs of like heatsink quantity. A mech with 20 heatsinks and a level 2 coolant flush presumably has a bigger flush than a mech with 10 heatsinks, and a level 3 coolant.

2. The 35% being split accross two modules can also been seen as an advantage that the MC only flush does not have. It can be used twice in one game. Once at 15% and once at 20% vs only once at 35%. For long engagements it might be more of an advantage to be able to reducing your cooling twice.

[Drexorn]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 05 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Wallets speak louder than words. We can only hope a compromise is reached before the 19th. My thought is add an MC cost to the Tier 1 & 2 Consumables, and a CB cost to the Tier 3. Both sides should be able to walk away happy with that, I should think.

I agree this is the common sense solution. You can make the t3 consumables super expensive with cbills if you want ($5mill per use?), but at least they'll be an option.

I personally don't ever see myself using any of these, cbill or mc. They said module slots are going to be the end-game grind. Most mechs at master only have 3 slots, you're going to lose target decay, 360 or capture module for a quick, one-time 35% reduction in heat? Or an artillery barrage/airstrike that can most likely be dodged fairly easily?

[Phasma Ferratus]

Is this an attempt by the devs to balance mc and c-bill consumables?

-The C-Bill Purchased Coolant Flush will allow a player to trigger a coolant flush TWICE during a match
VS
-The MC Purchased Large Coolant Flush allows a player to trigger a coolant flush ONCE during a match.

[DEN_Ninja]

Tarman, on 05 March 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm not pinning this on PGI wholly, IGP does seem to deserve a lot of the flak as they are the moneyguys. That still doesn't help the game be any better though. Dead game is dead game no matter who kills it. If this is the way forward I will drop it, as sad a panda as that would make me because I have been giant roboting in battlemechs since cardfold Unseen stuck in plastic nubbies and lined-paper stat sheets (OMG THE CIRCLES OOOOOOOOO). I'm a big Star Trek fan too, but not enough to shell out major cash or ride someone else's dime to the detriment of literally everyone I faced. It eventually made me feel dirty that my game power was fueled in a good portion by influxes of actual cash; worse that it wasn't even mine. Like being a made-man gangster beating up gradeschoolers.

The most ridiculous part is that if PGI were left to their own devices I think that the game wouldn't have nearly the issues it currently deals with. This IP could make them money completely without using p2w methods.

That's why kickstarter and indie games so popular. They have no constraints to a publisher. They are free to do what ever they want with their game. Space citizen looks like it is going to be a great game. So is Planetary Annihilation.

The only difference is that some of these indie companies already had huge successes in their pocket to make enough money to have the base level of a game down and ready to be made. Chris Roberts still has a pocket of cash from wing commander. Uber Games made Monday Night Combat and still make money from it.

PGI has made a few games but none too big to give them a savings to rely on.

[Phasma Ferratus]

oh and this

"Look at it this way, you get the SAME TOTAL heat dissipation on BOTH purchase methods. The C-bill one gives you the opportunity to dump twice in 1 match at the cost of a module slot." -Paul Inouye

[ciller]

shad0w4life, on 04 March 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

I can't believe people are whining about an extra slot being used when it comes down to it

DO YOU WANT THE GAME TO FAIL?! Holy hell, let them make money in a MINIMAL way like so, both get 35% coolant flush with the cbills requiring one more slot.

The ONLY thing i'd say that matters is eliminate the 6 PPC builds!

Also
Coolant flush won't save you from a headshot....

How are they not making money already? They have nearly a half million forum subscribers alone, do they really need to milk the cow that much that they, in effect, are forcing us to pay to be competitive? I don't like the mechanic at all, I don't like their implementation of said bad mechanic, and I do not like what it does to the competitive scene. GET RID OF THIS IMPLEMENTATION.

All 3 tiers should cost CBill and/or MC if you plan on keeping this at all. It should also be a one time purchase like other modules, allowing a one time use in each match and be appropriately expensive cbill wise to justify such.

As it stands it seems like PGI doesn't care about the fans, game balance, or the competitive scene but rather just interested in as much money as they can milk from us in as short a period of time as possible. Down this road leads ruination.

Edited by ciller, 05 March 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 05 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

My thought is add an MC cost to the Tier 1 & 2 Consumables, and a CB cost to the Tier 3. Both sides should be able to walk away happy with that, I should think.

Put plainly no.

One time use modules that have real combat effects are not welcome. Remember, that was the justification for R&R's removal, the free players wouldn't be able to keep up with the premium accounts.

This is the same thing magnified, if you want peak preformance, pay up! EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.

The simple fact that the MC mods are a slot less than the non-MC mods is just icing.

Seriously there are three mechs that can hold 4 modules. Raven -3L Atlas D-DC and Yen Lo.

....most of the stalkers only have one, a number of other mechs, Awesome comes to mind....also only have a single slot, two mastered out.

Yen Lo Wang just became something of a beast, stock it can fit all three modules....if you spring for the T3s, low on firepower HUGE on REAL MONEY firepower...all without any change in combat effectiveness.

Your LRM stalkers and Cats just took a hit, they can't call airstrikes and artillery AND use the two modules they need to be combat effective.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Tarman, on 05 March 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm not pinning this on PGI wholly, IGP does seem to deserve a lot of the flak as they are the moneyguys. That still doesn't help the game be any better though. Dead game is dead game no matter who kills it. If this is the way forward I will drop it, as sad a panda as that would make me because I have been giant roboting in battlemechs since cardfold Unseen stuck in plastic nubbies and lined-paper stat sheets (OMG THE CIRCLES OOOOOOOOO). I'm a big Star Trek fan too, but not enough to shell out major cash or ride someone else's dime to the detriment of literally everyone I faced. It eventually made me feel dirty that my game power was fueled in a good portion by influxes of actual cash; worse that it wasn't even mine. Like being a made-man gangster beating up gradeschoolers.

The most ridiculous part is that if PGI were left to their own devices I think that the game wouldn't have nearly the issues it currently deals with. This IP could make them money completely without using p2w methods.

This echoes some of my suspicions as well. It's been said often, and repeated here in this htread, Developer / Publisher relations are rarely anything other than some form of "adversarial". Could PGI do better with this had they not had to deal with IGP? Well we will never know that now. Frankly, at this point, if - IF - MW:O should fail, I hope that someone can grab the IP (I would if I could faster than anyone could say YOINK) and then crowdfund it.

While crowdfunding is problematic, let's face it, it has one very, VERY clear advantage - it does not come with investors and the adversarial relationship that so often poisons good ideas, good companies, and good people.