148 replies to this topic

[Matt Minus]

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, bu no one has ever started a thread about P2W and said something intelligent.
Even if we do assume a very slight advantage to the pay items, I think you still have to demonstrate how that is "winning".

Almost every F2P game sells consumable and items that give a small advantage. Players are generally OK with this as long as the advantage is marginal.

If the devs aren't going to sell useful items, how do you propose that they sustain the game? We saw an example with teh recent Cicada. There were a bunch of threads saying that if it had ECm it would be p2w. When it's specs were revealed, we saw a bunch of threads saying "I won't buy it without ECM". Hint: They're not going to make enough money to sustain the game selling paint and fuzzy dice.

[Voidsinger]

Problem I see is that it hammers mech diversity even more.

Only 5 mechs have 3 module slots (4 with Master Module):

Atlas D-DC, Raven 3L, Centurion Yen-Lo-Wang, Jenner 7K and Spider 5V.

Of these, the Atlas D-DC and Raven 3L are already the most chosen mechs due to ECM.

Having extra modules like this only makes choosing them a no-brainer "Press to Win" button.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Pihb, on 05 March 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Did you read the post? you can stack a small and a medium that will = 35% the mc only coolant flush = 35%. You have to shell out c-bills every time but the ability is there for everyone. The mc coolant flush is a convenience item only. Your argument is moot.

You have misunderstood the dev post. Please refrain from posting here until you understand the dev post.

[Adridos]

Pihb, on 05 March 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Did you read the post? you can stack a small and a medium that will = 35% the mc only coolant flush = 35%. You have to shell out c-bills every time but the ability is there for everyone. The mc coolant flush is a convenience item only. Your argument is moot.

So great. I have a mech with 2 module slots. I can have 1 free coolant flush of 35%. If I face off a guy who has a paid coolant flush, there is a chance he will also have some other module with it.

[WolvesX]

Say no to pay to win!

[Otto Cannon]

Pihb, on 05 March 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Did you read the post? you can stack a small and a medium that will = 35% the mc only coolant flush = 35%. You have to shell out c-bills every time but the ability is there for everyone. The mc coolant flush is a convenience item only. Your argument is moot.

Yes, but the c-bill coolant takes 2 slots; the MC player would have the same capacity plus a whole extra module slot to use for something else. That would be an actual, material advantage over the C-bill player which cannot be equalised without spending real money.

[El Penguin]

Everyone chill out! Relax and have a nice drink

[Onyx]

Xenroth, on 05 March 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

I don't like the fact you and anyone else call it pay to win ... no one of us has tested it yet so how you already can call it pay to win?

The definition of "pay to win" is item, service, device, or so forth that offers a noticeable and appreciable advantage over other similar things that can only be acquired via real money, while the other objects, if they exist, can be acquired by playing the game normally, but are ultimately and demonstrably inferior.

Let's look at this. You have 3 modules. One is 15%, one 20%, one 35%. 35% is clearly superior, pay to win.

Is the bonus technically superior? No. You can stack 2 modules (15 and 20%) for the same effect of 35% total. But, is there an advantage?

Yes. The MC credit option takes one module slot for 35%, the credit options take 2 module slots for the same benefit. Modules are presently passive (or active) objects that are semi-permanently available that give tactical advantages. You can have a 4x zoom, faster cap times, target retention, 360 targeting, and so on and so forth. Mechs are balanced around module access. At least in part.

So, is this benefit huge? Arguably, it depends on if these modules are somehow separate from the others, or if they're their own set of slots, or if they change modules for mechs to no longer be as limiting, or what have you.

Regardless, given the information we know, this is the definition of pay to win. You get the largest benefit in the smallest package, giving overall larger module flexibility for larger real returns comparatively.

[Matt Minus]

Onyx, on 05 March 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

The definition of "pay to win" is item, service, device, or so forth that offers a noticeable and appreciable advantage over other similar things that can only be acquired via real money, while the other objects, if they exist, can be acquired by playing the game normally, but are ultimately and demonstrably inferior.

Let's look at this. You have 3 modules. One is 15%, one 20%, one 35%. 35% is clearly superior, pay to win.

Is the bonus technically superior? No. You can stack 2 modules (15 and 20%) for the same effect of 35% total. But, is there an advantage?

Yes. The MC credit option takes one module slot for 35%, the credit options take 2 module slots for the same benefit. Modules are presently passive (or active) objects that are semi-permanently available that give tactical advantages. You can have a 4x zoom, faster cap times, target retention, 360 targeting, and so on and so forth. Mechs are balanced around module access. At least in part.

So, is this benefit huge? Arguably, it depends on if these modules are somehow separate from the others, or if they're their own set of slots, or if they change modules for mechs to no longer be as limiting, or what have you.

Regardless, given the information we know, this is the definition of pay to win. You get the largest benefit in the smallest package, giving overall larger module flexibility for larger real returns comparatively.

I think it's cute the way space poors are inventing definitions to support their arguments.
Still have not seen one address how the game is supposed to generate revenue if they're only allowed to sell undesirable items.

[xhrit]

Pihb, on 05 March 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Did you read the post? you can stack a small and a medium that will = 35% the mc only coolant flush = 35%. You have to shell out c-bills every time but the ability is there for everyone. The mc coolant flush is a convenience item only. Your argument is moot.

Did YOU even read the post? The MC only consumables have a distinct and measurable advantage over the c-bill ones.

Paying customers with MC only consumables will be able to carry twice as many consumables as non-paying customers.

That is the very definition of pay to win; paying customers have a distinct and measurable advantage over non paying ones.

Edited by xhrit, 05 March 2013 - 05:10 AM.

[DeeSaster]

El Penguin, on 05 March 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

Everyone chill out! Relax and have a nice drink

Sadly I run outta likes today. This one is pure gold. Well done mate! =)

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Matt Minus, on 05 March 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

I think it's cute the way space poors are inventing definitions to support their arguments.
Still have not seen one address how the game is supposed to generate revenue if they're only allowed to sell undesirable items.

...said the non founder to the legendary founder.

[DeeSaster]

Matt Minus, on 05 March 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

I think it's cute the way space poors are inventing definitions to support their arguments.
Still have not seen one address how the game is supposed to generate revenue if they're only allowed to sell undesirable items.

Don't try to hide behind elitism once your argument failed. That is poor form.

They made 5 million Dollars from founders alone. I myself have spent 150$ in this game. In my oppinion, they have a very reasonable business model. Riotgames would prolly agree BTW.

[Matt Minus]

Narcisoldier, on 05 March 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

...said the non founder to the legendary founder.

As if that means anything.

[o0Marduk0o]

Is it P2W because you fire one alpha more in a whole match with a one-trick-pony like 6 PPC Stalker?

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Matt Minus, on 05 March 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

As if that means anything.

It does when you're trying to call someone else a space poor.

[Pihb]

xhrit, on 05 March 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

Did YOU even read the post? The MC only consumables have a distinct and measurable advantage over the c-bill ones.

Paying customers with MC only consumables will be able to carry twice as many consumables as non-paying customers.

That is the very definition of pay to win; paying customers have a distinct and measurable advantage over non paying ones.

35% is 35%. Getting to that 35% might be a bigger hassle for the space poors (thank you Matt Minus), but it's there. Personally I hate the idea of a coolant module but the premise of your argument is way off.

Edited by Pihb, 05 March 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[Livewyr]

Voted yes in OP's Fox news Poll..Stupid poll is stupid.

Anyone remember that whole advantage thing about the YLW being able to mount the AC20 unlike the other centurions? That was Pay to win! I just got my *** handed to me by a full cheese team of YLWs on the way in here.. especially since they just buffed it to go 107 kph AND mount an AC20.. the P2W is stifling me! I "quit" (the forums for now to go play a few matches.. this is absurd)

Oh.. and YLW turned out not to be P2W, but the Ilya did 3 UAC5s = Game-breaking advantage! oh wait...

Wait and see, until then tighten down your foil helmets and play a few games..

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Pihb, on 05 March 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

35% is 35%. Getting to that 35% might be a bigger hassle for the space poors (thank you Matt Minus), but it's there. Personally I hate the idea of a coolant module but the premise of your argument is way off.

Losing a module slot is more than a hassle in competitive play.

[Critical Fumble]

Actually, to be fair, CF 2 (the consumable, not my clone) is actually a tiny bit better than CF 3 (again, not my clone). The reason being that while CF 3 does cool you by 35%, CF 2 cools you by 20% twice for a total of 40%. They've also said that CF 3 will not mix with CF 1 or 2, meaning you won't be able get more by using both.

I fail to see the point of the thing, except to have a C-bill and MC sink for the forward thinking impaired; but I reserve my judgement on it being pay to win until I see what the C-bill costs and actual mechanics of the things are.