37 replies to this topic

[Waladil]

Okay. So they announced consumables, and the community is mad unhappy about it. Pay to Win is thrown around a lot, and people are worried. I'm worried too. But PGI hasn't been too horrible to us in the past, we haven't had any ECM hero 'Mechs, for example (Note: It was revealed in a preview elsewhere that the X-5 is not ECM capable). So I wanted to start this thread for SANE, RATIONAL discussion about consumables, and how to make them balanced, while still providing incentive to purchase the MC variants.

In summary, the thread goals are:
1.) Find a way to make consumables balanced
2.) Maintain incentive to purchase the MC versions (gotta pay the code-monkeys somehow).
3.) Refrain from complaining. If I were a moderator I'd delete all posts that are complainy and whine-y because I want to have a positive atmosphere here. There are plenty of complaint threads right now.


Here are my starting two suggestions:

1.) Do not have consumables slotted in standard module slots. Put them in CMod slots that each 'Mech has an infinite quantity of. Therefore having a t1 and a t2 is not objectively worse than a single t3, because you do gain flexibility.

2.) Have a hard cap on the number of tiers each 'Mech can mount. Let's say five, for example. So you can have 1 t3, and 1 t2, or maybe 3 t1s and 1 t2. So here having a t3 would be an advantage, but it would also tie your hands for mounting other modules. (Also, using five tiers means that no 'Mech can have two t3s, notably.)

Please, critique my suggestions and come up with your own! Just remember to keep the three goals in mind!

[Johnny Morgan]

If it's suppose to be end game type content, then it should be linked to the pilot skill tree.

i.e. want to run coolant flush, unlock the pilot tree skill first. Want air strikes, unlock that module slot first.

After someone has put in the time to grind to unlock the feature, I couldn't care less if they spend real money or not.

also sorry, Large coolant as the example, cheap to buy with MC, expensive to buy with cbills.

You will get the same amount of revenue you would anyway but without of the Q_Q

[Naduk]

i think they should just remove the MC layer to this completely

they can instead put the MC layer back in via a different route
VISUAL EFFECTS !
how many people will pay MC to change the color of the coolant that is flushed from their mech
or the smoke from their artillery strikes or even the "type" of arty strike launched
of course by saying type i mean purely visualy damage and other values are identical but they might look and sound different
(ie regular arty guns, ARROW IV off map arty, from orbit Naval Gauss ect ect, they would all look so different but the effects identical)

i think consumables taking module slots is the right way to go
but MC should not come into the acquisition of them

[Budor]

All 3 tiers are purchaseable with mc and (a lot of) cbills.

How gamebreaking coolant flush is game mechanics wise comes down to testing it once its implemented.

Edited by Budor, 05 March 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[DEN_Ninja]

If they are going to make MC Airstrikes I want it to do the same damage as a tier 1 airstrike but instead of dropping bombs it drops rainbows or explodes like fireworks.

[Lord Perversor]

Wich amuses me is that actually C-bill vs MC consumables force you to choose eficiency or mod slots, and right now C-bills ones are better than Mc for current game (Collant flush wise)

So the choice is
MC = 35% disippation  1 module slot and 1 single use
vs
C-bill= 20%+15% dissipation takes up to 2 module slots (one per each tier) and up to 2 uses (guess not 2x 35% but each for 20%-15%  )

As current game c-bills beat hands down, as you can use it at least twice with a  bit of heat management, when CW or conquest base modes comes up, the have an extra passive module may be better.


Making a special slot for consumables it's wrong since it makes them a MUST use to be at top, forcing them to share the modules slots makes them a CHOICE between a disposable useful in combat ability vs a passive permament not so visible help in combat.

So it comes at it some ppl may find modules usefull in the long run, and prefer them above consumables since the 2nd are more for specific situations.

Edited by Lord Perversor, 05 March 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Hydromorph]

Just have a system like EvE has with its plex, Have MC cards people can buy for cash and then sell on a market place for C-Bills.

It would need a lot more content in game to fly but it sure is a good way for people to grind out a way to use items and not pay cash, those who play casual have a way to get C-Bills faster than what would be possible.

[Redshift2k5]

you can buy them with c-bills, that's already more fair them mechbays.

The MC version gets a small bonus because it takes one less module slot. Sounds fine to me.

[cleghorn6]

Johnny Morgan, on 05 March 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

If it's suppose to be end game type content, then it should be linked to the pilot skill tree.

i.e. want to run coolant flush, unlock the pilot tree skill first. Want air strikes, unlock that module slot first.

After someone has put in the time to grind to unlock the feature, I couldn't care less if they spend real money or not.

This is how every other module works, I see no reason why these new ones would be different.

I don't understand why everyone is so upset. It's not like you can create a new account, invest a couple hundred bucks and be driving a D-DC with 3 auto-win modules.

There are 5 variants which can mount 3 modules currently. 3 lights, the Wang and the D-DC. Everything else has 1 or 2. I really don't think I would mount a consumable module even if I could when there are plenty of other modules which are way more awesome. Air Strike/Artillery maybe but we have zero information on those.

I just don't get it.

Edit: After some fact checking

You have to unlock Master on the weight class, spend at a minimum 5K GXP to unlock the module (if it's the same as the lowest existing module) and then 2 million C-Bills (if it's as cheap as the cheapest existing module) for a 1 shot module? So on current C-Bill/MC exchange rate we're looking at about 800 MC which is about 5 of your Earth dollars. Minimum.

For a 1 use module.

For. A. 1. Use. Module.

Dude. Spend the cash. Whatever.

Edited by cleghorn6, 05 March 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[AndyHill]

I don't mind consumables and I might even be able to live with more effective gold consums (MIGHT), but at least to me PGI's initial approach feels very wrong.

1) The biggest problem when transferring turn and dice -based tabletop game mechanics is the instant pinpoint damage/alpha capability in the simulator. PGI have relatively unsuccessfully tried to combat this with double armor and huge heat production.

- The coolant flush will make this problem much worse! Now the first engagement between two 'mechs blazing alphas at each other is about 35% more effective, since due to PGI's approach, heat is usually the limiting factor in firepower. This initial engagement is very decisive and PGI have said they want long engagements instead of insta-death. And I agree with them. Note that this problem will be worse when Clans arrive so they're digging themselves deeper into a hole they have trouble climbing out of as it is.

2) Battlefield mechanisms such as artillery and airstrikes need to be tied to the maps and missions, not some purchaseable stuff your or the opponent team may or may not have. Artillery vehicles, command posts, FACs and such would be a tremendously exciting gameplay element if done correctly, now they are going to be another balance-breaking semi-mandatory why-did-my-teammates-cheap-out-on-us-again -device, a bit like ECM.

[xRatas]

Not a big fan of these consumables. No matter how they are paid, it widens the cap between paying and free player.

Paying customer has more MC or CBills to burn either way, with premium time and hero mechs. So easier for him to pay with whatever.

I agree PGI needs income, but anything that makes it harder for free player to play, makes bad reputation for game, and effectively turns off new people.

Premium ammo in WOT has always been stupid. Even more stupid it became, when same ammo could be bought with ingame money. Premium time buyers got huge advantage over others.

There is still a chance this could be implemented reasonably, but the direction is just wrong IMO. I want to beat others with skill, not because I'm willing to spend more money than someone else.

Edited by xRatas, 05 March 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[WolvesX]

I don't support PAY-TO-WIN!

[Johnny Morgan]

cleghorn6, on 05 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

This is how every other module works, I see no reason why these new ones would be different.

.....

I just don't get it.

I hope so, that hasn't really been clarified and I think people are assuming that since they are consumables you will be able to just buy them from the get go.

Makes sense to me that they need to be unlocked, that's why I'm not really that concerned about it. If you can just buy them without regards to the pilot tree I would be disappointed.

Also I see more people just using the 20% or 15% if they are cheap enough, it's not like we all don't have cbills to burn.

[AndyHill]

cleghorn6, on 05 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

This is how every other module works, I see no reason why these new ones would be different.

I don't understand why everyone is so upset. It's not like you can create a new account, invest a couple hundred bucks and be driving a D-DC with 3 auto-win modules.

There are 5 variants which can mount 3 modules currently. 3 lights, the Wang and the D-DC. Everything else has 1 or 2. I really don't think I would mount a consumable module even if I could when there are plenty of other modules which are way more awesome. Air Strike/Artillery maybe but we have zero information on those.

They probably won't be end-game like the other modules. In WoT you bring consumables to every match starting at about mid-tiers where it begins to make sense. In MWO we don't really have tiers so they will probably be priced to be affordable to just about anyone so we will start seeing a lot of them. The 'mechs with less module slots just lost a bit of their usefulness at least, but I guess D-DC and 3L really did need the boost.

[cleghorn6]

Johnny Morgan, on 05 March 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Makes sense to me that they need to be unlocked, that's why I'm not really that concerned about it. If you can just buy them without regards to the pilot tree I would be disappointed.

Agreed.

[Sol Fin]

By consumables I mean things that have limited number of use, doesn't take any weight and has no drawbacks.

My suggestion with consumables:
1. Never ever implement any consumables that changes your own mech. At least without additional activity. So NO coolant flush, no golden ammo, no speed boosting, no instant rearm consumable etc etc etc. None of this. Your mech can get utility consumables, but no direct boosts.
2. All consumables could be bought for CB on reasonable prices.
3. Besides CBills consumables should cost some amount of GXP to unlock initially and some amount of GXP to actually buy one.

For me good example consumable that hasn't been discussed would be a rearm mobile base. So this mobile base will be visible before landing, it could be destroyed, it has limited amount of rearm potential and mech has to be powered down to use it. Consumable will also take 3 module slots. So on one hand such consumable can be used to refill your ammo during prolonged/chain missions (we are going to have them, right PGI?). But refill is not instant, can be countered and takes some amount of tactical thinking to pull off. Not saying it's the most needed consumable, no. It's just an example of my way of thinking about them that just got into my head.

Edited by Sol Fin, 05 March 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Zaptruder]

Make them purchasable with C-Bills only.

Sell CBill packs for MC. Profit. Balance. Hoo-ray.

[Fut]

Waladil, on 05 March 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

Here are my starting two suggestions:

1.) Do not have consumables slotted in standard module slots. Put them in CMod slots that each 'Mech has an infinite quantity of. Therefore having a t1 and a t2 is not objectively worse than a single t3, because you do gain flexibility.

Hmm. An infinite amount of Consumable-Module slots? That seems sort of dangerous, no?
I mean, if there's no limit to these slots, somebody with a shitload of MC or C-Bux could load up with hundreds of Air Strikes and Coolant Flushes. These consumables won't be game breaking, unless people are able to carry shocking amounts of them.

[DeeSaster]

IMO this whole thing just blew up, because you cannot buy tier 3 consumables with softcash. Let every tier be bought with either soft- or hardcash and the problem is gone. The rest can be done by normal playtesting and balancing.

[Kassatsu]

Remove the Tier 3 modules. Add bulk packs of T1 and T2 modules purchasable with both MC AND C-bills.

Or let people buy the Tier 3 modules with C-bills at fairly reasonable prices. 10-20k for tier 1, 20-30k for tier 2, and 30-40k for tier 3 would be ideal - It's a money sink if you want to use it (or you can throw real money at the game), and you aren't forced to pay real money for it. Perhaps make it so T1 and T2 combined cost a bit more than T3. That, or have the prices identical. Purely as an example:

Tier 1 coolant costs 10k
Tier 2 coolant costs 25k
Tier 3 coolant costs 35k

Overall prices are the same, overall cooling % is the same, but T1 + T2 takes two slots, and lets you use two separate (less effective of course) coolant flushes in a single match.

Edited by Kassatsu, 05 March 2013 - 05:27 AM.