103 replies to this topic

[Drake Syn]

Penance, on 05 March 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

PAY 2 WIN = NY YANKEE BASEBALL

not recently, but since 1996.

{Sarcasm} Everyone knows real sports are all rigged. It's like soap operas for meatheads.{/sarcasm}

[Mechteric]

I would have to agree with the OP, P2W is what I saw in World of Tanks with the gold ammo and super ridiculously good tanks that were crazy expensive using earned in-game funds. I just don't see that in MWO yet, and hopefully won't.

[Vasces Diablo]

Pihoqahiak, on 05 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Many players are looking ahead when it comes to this sort of thing. Especially when deciding whether this will remain (or grow into) a game that they decide to invest time and/or money into. Many players are wanting a healthy competitive game from MW:O. Pay to win model games do not provide a good basis for competitive gaming, which is part of why games like League of Legends become successful e-sports, as it doesn't have anything you can buy to gain an advantage in it's competitive play. Turning to pay to win strategies in a PvP based game generally means the game mechanics don't stand well enough on their own and they resort to feeding on player's desire to purchase an advantage within the game play to win more often. Yes, those things won't win them every game, but it does provide them an advantage none the less, increasing how often they win overall.

PGi has made noise about "esport" and sanctioned tourney play. I would guess that a "no MC consumable" rule would be in play. If that's the case (PURE assumption) then that would be pretty telling. I find it really hard to see any kind of competitive league that wouldn't have that sort of rule in place.

[Drake Syn]

CapperDeluxe, on 05 March 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

I would have to agree with the OP, P2W is what I saw in World of Tanks with the gold ammo and super ridiculously good tanks that were crazy expensive using earned in-game funds. I just don't see that in MWO yet, and hopefully won't.

Have you ever played World of Tanks? All gold tanks are sub par for their teir. All of them. They are also unmodifiable. The reason you get them is for increased income, better crew training, and cheaper tier repair costs. >.>

[RG Notch]

Doc Holliday, on 05 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

It almost certainly will after today's patch.

The training grounds or the x5 make it P2W now?

[Livewyr]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

When I was growing up, you paid for games once. You went down to the store, spent your $60, and got a complete

Wait wha? When I was growing up.. we went to the flea market and got Atari games $1 a piece. (and to be fair when I was a bit older.. it was about $20 per game...maybe 30 for a battlechest type box)

[BrkDncr]

Voridan Atreides, on 05 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

We don't even know what the prices are so how can you say that?

The price doesn't matter. What matters is that it's ONLY available if you use real-world money AND it's unbalanced. This could all easily be avoided by putting a cbill price on each item.

[Voridan Atreides]

BrkDncr, on 05 March 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

The price doesn't matter. What matters is that it's ONLY available if you use real-world money AND it's unbalanced. This could all easily be avoided by putting a cbill price on each item.

It will be available in c-bills.

[Roughneck45]

http://mwomercs.com/...88#entry2007288

$6.95 MC purchase will buy you 50 artillary/air strikes. Thats comes about to about $0.14 per module. If you buy the larger MC bundles, you can bring that cost down to $0.10 per module.

As long as all the consumables are priced in this fashion, it is Pennies2W.

Im sure the community will still be split on the issue, mainly in principal. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but I also have no qualms with purchasing MC.

Edited by Roughneck45, 05 March 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[urmamasllama]

Voridan Atreides, on 05 March 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

It will be available in c-bills.

not exactly and that's the problem they cbill equivalent is not as good as the mc version thus P2W

[Matt Minus]

Roughneck45, on 05 March 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...88#entry2007288

$6.95 MC purchase will buy you 50 artillary/air strikes. Thats comes about to about $0.14 per module. If you buy the larger MC bundles, you can bring that cost down to $0.10 per module.

As long as all the consumables are priced in this fashion, it is Pennies2W.

Im sure the community will still be split on the issue, mainly in principal. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but I also have no qualms with purchasing MC.

C'mon, space poors, surely you can scrounge up one thin dime. ROTFLMACOPTERSAURUS Of course you can't, because you feel entitled to play a full featured game for free.

Edited by Matt Minus, 05 March 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Kelito]

Man...Reading is hard

Personally, I wouldn't complain so much about this issue if I hadn't been burned by SO MANY "F2P" games in the past.

Its not fun, to HAVE to pay for something, period...Its even worse if you HAVE to pay to stay competitive.

I would gladly pay $15.00 per month to have access to everything as long as I didn't have to pay extra for special items...Been burned by that in previously mentioned F2P games, or games that went F2P later on.

MWO is such a GREAT franchise/game, I LOVE LOVE LOVE it...I play every day...I don't want to have to give it up because I can no longer afford to stay competitive. Playing a game that you can never win because you cannot afford the "GOLD AMMO" is not a lot of fun for anyone.

We will have to wait and see what happens with this, so i am staying cautiously optimistic about how it is going....



EDIT: The above does not include things like cockpit items and paint jobs, things that make your mech pretty, you should always have to pay for those kinds of cosmetic things.

Edited by Kelito, 05 March 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[BrkDncr]

Voridan Atreides, on 05 March 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

It will be available in c-bills.

no, there are 2 cbill versions, and 1 mc version. The 1 mc version is functionally different than the 2 cbill versions.

[BrkDncr]

Matt Minus, on 05 March 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

C'mon, space poors, surely you can scrounge up one thin dime. ROTFLMACOPTERSAURUS Of course you can't, because you feel entitled to play a full featured game for free.

You're missing the point. Every p2w game out there is not fun to play. The MWO community that are against this is trying to keep the game fun and entertaining for everyone. Setting up a P2W scenario, even if it's cheap, makes for a rough, and likely disappointing, long-term game. The only reason for a P2W scenario is to get as much $$$ as possible in a short period of time. This likely occurs when the game's investors puts pressure on the devs to show immediate profitability.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game limps along in this state, and may continue for a long while with a reduced player base. All that would be needed is a simliar game to come along that does F2P "better" than this one, and then the game is tanked.

[IceSerpent]

Voridan Atreides, on 05 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

We don't even know what the prices are so how can you say that?

Prices are irrelevant - no matter what the price is, there will be somebody who can't afford it.

[Weaselball]

@OP

All we have to base things on so far are their semi-detailed explanation of how the coolant flush will work. If this goes live, it will be Pay2Win, and here is why:

The Pay2Win version of coolant flush is 35% heat dump, 1 use, 1 module slot.
The Free2Play version is 15% or 20% heat dump, 1 use each (2 potential max, but each weaker than P2W) and 2 module slots.

The whole reason why I am irked over this is because it frees up 1 module slot for the Pay2Win version, if you want to get the maximum cooling % out of it. Sure, you could go Free2Play, buy both c-bill modules and still get the 35%, with the option to dump half at a time, but then youre down 1 module over the P2W guy.

That's what irks me. There is a clear difference, and a clear advantage, despite how much PGI is trying to paint it off as "but you get 2 uses instead of 1 with the c-bill versions." Yes, PGi, you do. But you're also down a module slot now.

[Tarman]

Matt Minus, on 05 March 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

C'mon, space poors, surely you can scrounge up one thin dime. ROTFLMACOPTERSAURUS Of course you can't, because you feel entitled to play a full featured game for free.

I see you have an excellent grasp of the strategic issues here. Dial out a level, pilot. Chasing away the "poors" as you say, means tanking a major portion of your playerbase. Free players are game content, free advertising, and potential future paying players. Less players means less game for everyone and less potential income. And there are way more than freeplay-only people who will leave or not even sign up over a p2w model of content delivery.

Most of the hardcore esporters are not cool with having cash-kit influence anything at all dirtside, regardless of the specific kit. Esporters are against it on principle because it messes with their way of gaming. Esporters are also most likely to be the folks posting on 4chan and reddit about how the game is p2w; these are probably the last people in the gaming world you want talking about how only wallets rule in your game. They're also the portion of the playerbase that has been dumped on the hardest by the game development since OB. They still don't have a decent matcher or even a simple lobby for group/group gaming. They don't have a lot of patience left. Tryhards however will love buying their way to victory, especially when the real teams leave the game.

Ofc if you're merely poosticking because you think it's fun, then by all means, continue. Don't let rational discussion sway you from your appointed rounds.

[Roughneck45]

BrkDncr, on 05 March 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

You're missing the point. Every p2w game out there is not fun to play. The MWO community that are against this is trying to keep the game fun and entertaining for everyone. Setting up a P2W scenario, even if it's cheap, makes for a rough, and likely disappointing, long-term game. The only reason for a P2W scenario is to get as much $$$ as possible in a short period of time. This likely occurs when the game's investors puts pressure on the devs to show immediate profitability.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game limps along in this state, and may continue for a long while with a reduced player base. All that would be needed is a simliar game to come along that does F2P "better" than this one, and then the game is tanked.

I think they are trying to address this with the qualitative differences though.

For airstrikes/artillary strikes the c-bill option actually does MORE damage than the MC one, but takes longer to mark the target.

So from that, my guess is that the c-bill one will actually be better and take higher skill to use, while the MC one will be more of a "holy crap need to bomb that spot this second" kind of use.

The coolant flush differences are a bit less appealing however.

At the end of the day, all PGI really needs to ask themselves is if someone with higher skill who has not spent a penny on the game can beat someone of less skill that has purchased these items. As long as they can answer "Yes" I think they will be happy. I don't see any of these 3 consumables being an "I win" button, but it is all speculation until they are in the game.

Edited by Roughneck45, 05 March 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Drake Syn]

Kelito, on 05 March 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Man...Reading is hard

Personally, I wouldn't complain so much about this issue if I hadn't been burned by SO MANY "F2P" games in the past.

Its not fun, to HAVE to pay for something, period...Its even worse if you HAVE to pay to stay competitive.

I would gladly pay $15.00 per month to have access to everything as long as I didn't have to pay extra for special items...Been burned by that in previously mentioned F2P games, or games that went F2P later on.

MWO is such a GREAT franchise/game, I LOVE LOVE LOVE it...I play every day...I don't want to have to give it up because I can no longer afford to stay competitive. Playing a game that you can never win because you cannot afford the "GOLD AMMO" is not a lot of fun for anyone.

We will have to wait and see what happens with this, so i am staying cautiously optimistic about how it is going....



EDIT: The above does not include things like cockpit items and paint jobs, things that make your mech pretty, you should always have to pay for those kinds of cosmetic things.

But everyone is viewing this like it will be some sort of gamebreaking, monstrously imbalancing item. But it's not. It is one single-use item that might allow one extra alpha strike. Whether or not that even affects the match is still based entirely on player skill. Not to mention the fact that you can still do it with just C-Bills, albeit slightly less effectively. Nothing they have mentioned does anything besides add additional strategies to the game. And seriously, WoT is not imbalanced by gold ammo, at all, because your shot hitting, penetrating, or doing more damage still won't matter in the least ifyou are a sucky team player, or your team is amazing. a slight advantage is just that, a ~slight~ advantage. We are not even near the realm of game balance issue. And the devs have even stated that they are still testing the balance because of all of us discussing (or ranting as the case may be) about the topic. When they issue a hero mech with autolocking, target seeking, swivelling ERPPC's that don't cause heat to fire, and it's only available to people who have a premium account and always use MC consumables, then you can finally have an opinion about how unbalancing they are. This is so not a big deal. Play the game, have fun, stop being so concerned.

[Matt Minus]

BrkDncr, on 05 March 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

You're missing the point. Every p2w game out there is not fun to play. The MWO community that are against this is trying to keep the game fun and entertaining for everyone. Setting up a P2W scenario, even if it's cheap, makes for a rough, and likely disappointing, long-term game. The only reason for a P2W scenario is to get as much $$$ as possible in a short period of time. This likely occurs when the game's investors puts pressure on the devs to show immediate profitability.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game limps along in this state, and may continue for a long while with a reduced player base. All that would be needed is a simliar game to come along that does F2P "better" than this one, and then the game is tanked.

There's not going to be a "better" MechWarrior game, though. I suspect a lot of us are here because of the license. Because of that, the game will probably never achieve the economys of scale needed to sustain itself on the small percentage of players willing to buy cosmetic items, so they need to make money somehow. How else would you propose they do it.