97 replies to this topic

[Lyrik]

As a pilot who doesn't drive any ECM Mechs (ECM FOR THE HUNCH NOW :-P) I don't have any problem with it.

My eyes still work as good as ever. Communication over chat works as good as ever.

And if you suck at coordination over teamspeak as much the team I'm ... well, don't give ECM the faul :-P

I like ECM in its current implentation.

[Ari Dian]

Its not the question if you like it, or if its ok.

The question is: "is it balanced?"

You have a mech. Raven 3L. 1.5t free space. What do you add:
( a ) ECM
( b ) AMS
( c ) Heatsinks +- armor
( d ) BAP


Because you choose (a) it does explain why its overpowered.

Edited by Ari Dian, 06 March 2013 - 04:31 AM.

[Hekalite]

It's not about wether you can deal with it or not. I can deal with it, but that doesn't mean it isn't unbalanced. And when people say it's "unbalanced" that doesn't mean they want to nerf it into oblivion (though I'm sure some do out of frustration). Most people just want sensible alterations. After reading more and more dev comments on various issues it feels like we are talking to a brick wall. A Command Chair post on the subject might alleviate that feeling for me at least, assuming it's not more of the same 'we know what's good for you now shut up and take it' attitude we've seen up to now.

So once again, here is my calm and rational feedback. I've seen the effects of Tag. I've seen the effects of the PPC. I've seen the effets of the sensor modules. I've seen the effects of the state rewind. None of these things invalidate the fact that for 1.5 tons and 2 crits noone would be bothered to consider taking another piece of equipment on an ECM capable mech. My suggestion is to raise it to 2.5-3 tons and 3 crits. With 3 crits, you will be constrained to mounting it in the arms or side torsos. At least that gives us something to shoot for.

[Ari Dian]

Hekalite, on 06 March 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

...
My suggestion is to raise it to 2.5-3 tons and 3 crits. With 3 crits, you will be constrained to mounting it in the arms or side torsos. At least that gives us something to shoot for.

There are a few parts they cant change without breaking the construction rules from the TT.
Crit slots and weight are two of the parts that would cause problems with the stock designs.

But they could and should change the function of what is does.
Maybe easiest with adding different ECMs that do different funktions. Like ECM1: reduce target range; ECM2: 180 Bubble against Streaks; ....

[StalaggtIKE]

Hekalite, on 06 March 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

So once again, here is my calm and rational feedback. I've seen the effects of Tag. I've seen the effects of the PPC. I've seen the effets of the sensor modules. I've seen the effects of the state rewind. None of these things invalidate the fact that for 1.5 tons and 2 crits noone would be bothered to consider taking another piece of equipment on an ECM capable mech. My suggestion is to raise it to 2.5-3 tons and 3 crits. With 3 crits, you will be constrained to mounting it in the arms or side torsos. At least that gives us something to shoot for.

ECM and its counters are all screwed. Just as I feel it is wrong for ECM to completely negate guided missiles and radar, so is PPC and TAG doing the same to ECM. Why is it the devs are so hell bent on leaving ECM so powerful, that the only way to "balance" it, is to temporarily remove it from play?

Lyrik, on 06 March 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

As a pilot who doesn't drive any ECM Mechs (ECM FOR THE HUNCH NOW :-P) I don't have any problem with it.

My eyes still work as good as ever. Communication over chat works as good as ever.

And if you suck at coordination over teamspeak as much the team I'm ... well, don't give ECM the faul :-P

I like ECM in its current implentation.

*face palm to the back of the face*

[Hekalite]

Ari Dian, on 06 March 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

There are a few parts they cant change without breaking the construction rules from the TT.
Crit slots and weight are two of the parts that would cause problems with the stock designs.

But they could and should change the function of what is does.
Maybe easiest with adding different ECMs that do different funktions. Like ECM1: reduce target range; ECM2: 180 Bubble against Streaks; ....

Wait, I thought adhering to TT was out the window. They have said time and time again that they will deviate if it makes the game play better. Nobody drives stock variants except as trial mechs anyway.

[Twisted Power]

@ Armando

I hope the nerfing of mechs is not because it can carry ECM. I agree there should be a penalty with having ECM and it should be tied to the ECM when equipted not the mech who carries it. Otherwise you are not balancing the object you are creating a world around it.

[CoreHunter]

Shame that they can't fix ECM before (*&% up something else like consumables but hey I havn't given them money since ECM so

[Critical Fumble]

Hekalite, on 06 March 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Wait, I thought adhering to TT was out the window. They have said time and time again that they will deviate if it makes the game play better. Nobody drives stock variants except as trial mechs anyway.

They want it there so that they have usable stock designs to sell. In essence, they follow TT when its convenient. Such as the coolant flush thing - there's a TT equivalent of that (using Solaris rules?) where you mount an item (that uses tons and crits rather than hammerspace) which allows you to flush and refill your coolant in battle. It is, however, dangerous in some way, I think its exposed to crits and causes damage like ammo does.

StalaggtIKE, on 06 March 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

*face palm to the back of the face*

I stopped myself from replying, "Saying, 'communication over chat works as good as ever,' is like saying 'sending notes by telegram works as good as ever'." Wait, there it is! Crap!

I have yet to think of a parallel to ECM in any game. Just in terms of effects, not the costs:effects. The best parallel in terms of its usefulness and limiting it to specific chassis I can think of are class based games in general. For instance an RPG where wizards have to have a spell book in order to use magic. It weighs something, and probably has some significant cost, but without it the wizard is just a creepy bearded dude with a bathrobe and walking stick. There's also no point in having a fighter carry one around as he can't use magic so there's no point in even giving him the option to have one. Except in the MW:O version of this analogy, there are a fair number of illiterate "wizards" and there's this one barbarian that can use magic.

[StalaggtIKE]

Twisted Power, on 06 March 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

@ Armando

I hope the nerfing of mechs is not because it can carry ECM. I agree there should be a penalty with having ECM and it should be tied to the ECM when equipted not the mech who carries it. Otherwise you are not balancing the object you are creating a world around it.

Exactly. This is effecting the mech only. Let's say someone wants to run a D-DC without ECM. In theory it will be made inferior in some way. Why? Because it can carry ECM. Again this is merely an attempt to remove ECM from the battlefield, instead of addressing its balance issues. I rather see it in its broken state, than to see it completely "removed." So instead of getting a proper BAP and NARC with ECM there to keep them in check, we're going to have ECM join them in obscurity. Perhaps we'll get consumable torso twist modules, next.

[Twisted Power]

Lol @ Consumable torso twist modules. I laughed a bit too loud at work when I read that!

[WolvesX]

BAP

AMS

ECM

1.5 tons, 2 slots!

BAP = 25% increased target range, 25% faster information, detect shutdown mechs under 120m

AMS = Shot down 1-8 LRM, 0-3 SSRM

ECM = Well, as there is no discussion about its OPness anymore I'm going to skip this part.

---

ECM should be = decrease the range your mech is targetable by 25%, 25% slower information from you, can not be detected when you are shut down. Every mech should be able to get it.

That is a fair solution.

or make ECM hit both sides equally (same effect on both sides), no counter mode just ON / OFF and give BAP the counter.

http://mwomercs.com/...l-among-equals/

---

ECM has a hugh impact on the game and I never, never saw a ECM capable mech that doesn't equip it!

ECM is just too much for 1.5 tons and 2 slots, just compare it to BAP, well think about it, if you could equip it on every mech? Would you really not equip it?

I would take it every time.

---

ECM got only one good counter: ECM.

All other counters are skill based, PPC skillbased, TAG skillbase, ADV.SEN timebase... ECM zero skill to use, a no brainer. Even if you don't use it in its 2 modes or even think about it, it gives you and your team a huge advantage.

Spilt it into different parts (like 5) and if you want to equip all you need 10 slots and 10 tons or something.

Edited by WolvesX, 11 March 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Ari Dian]

Hekalite, on 06 March 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Wait, I thought adhering to TT was out the window. They have said time and time again that they will deviate if it makes the game play better. Nobody drives stock variants except as trial mechs anyway.

Yes, for damage and heat of the weapons.
But they didnt and will have serrious problems, when they change the weight and crit slots of the items.

The root are the stock mechs. The basic variants are the basic stock variants from the TT. if they start to mess up the weight and crits of the items, these mechs will not work anymore.

I dont say they will never or should not change it. But so far this, together with the mech construction rules, was keep unchanged. And i dont think they will change this, as it gives more problems in the long run. And it dont have to be changed They can adjust most gear with heat, damage and recharge rate.

[Lyrik]

Leave ECM alone!!!

No serieux. I like it . ECM has a lot of counters. I can still hit you with lasers.

I'm glad that PGI doesn't change it to the will of some wannabe textwarrior.

[rmz]

So, let's see at two balanced options you have if you want to be protected from LRMs...

AMS - requires ammo, 200k, 1.5t (w ammo), does not stop all dmg
ECM - does not require anything, same weight, stops LRMs, stops SSRMs, for ALL mechs in the bubble, screws with opponent's targeting, target data and map

Sure, let's jump on the 'sure it is balanced wagon'.

But let's forget the LRMs exist. ECM would still be THE 1.5t thing you want to have. There are things designed only to counter ECM! And they fail in doing so too.

Please PGI, I know you are sick hearing this ECM rant over and over again, but please, if you don't want to fix ECM maybe just pull it out for now.

[StalaggtIKE]

Lyrik, on 06 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Leave ECM alone!!!

No serieux. I like it . ECM has a lot of counters. I can still hit you with lasers.

I'm glad that PGI doesn't change it to the will of some wannabe textwarrior.

Mind sharing why you like it?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 06 March 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Ghostbear Gurdel]

WolvesX, on 06 March 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

BAP

AMS

ECM

1.5 tons, 2 slots!

BAP = 25% increased target range, 25% faster information, detect shutdown mechs under 120m

AMS = Shot down 1-8 LRM, 0-3 SSRM

ECM = Well, as there is no discussion about its OPness anymore I'm going to skip this part.

---

ECM should be = decrease the range your mech is targetable by 25%, 25% slower information from you, can not be detected when you are shut down. Every mech should be able to get it.

That is a fair solution.

or make ECM hit both sides equally (same effect on both sides), no counter mode just ON / OFF and give BAP the counter.

THIS PGI THIS!! For the love of all that is good and HOLY!! Please do this!!!

[Ghostbear Gurdel]

Lyrik, on 06 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Leave ECM alone!!!

No serieux. I like it . ECM has a lot of counters. I can still hit you with lasers.

I'm glad that PGI doesn't change it to the will of some wannabe textwarrior.

Really? How is "I can hit you with Lasers" a counter for ECM? It is not. It is a basic game play mechanic that applies to all mechs. Maybe if lasers were attracted to ECM mechs it would be a counter. Yet ECM completely stops a basic game play mechanic, namely LRMs. I like to play with a (mostly) Stock CPLT-C1 which has 20 tons devoted to LRMS! 14 for the 2xLRM 15s, and 6 tons for ammo. Yet with a 1.5 ton 2 crit piece of equipment, my ENTIRE 20 TONS of weaponry is USELESS! You say "Well then take TAG". Than means I have to drop a medium laser to do so, weakening my short range defense guns, it also limits my LRMS which have a max range of 1000 meters, to the 750 meter range of tag, depriving me of 250 meters of range. Also, if a hostile ECM mech gets within 200 meters of me, even the TAG is useless. This suggestion also implies that because of ECM TAG is now a REQUIRED INTEGRAL piece of equipment for any LRM mech, and makes Artemis IV useless, as only one bonus can be used at a time. Why carry Artemis when I have the lighter TAG, that is NEEDED to counter ECM's ********. ECM is at its core BROKEN! It has far too much power to influence the battlefield for what it costs to use.

[NuclearPanda]

I logged in to the forums, for the first time in months, just to chime in on this.

I've been mostly lurking these forums for at two months now, hoping to see some kind of community acknowledgement that ECM is a clusterf*** of wrong. I see that acknowledgement EVERY TIME a new Patch Feedback thread is created.

Every. Single. Time.

What concerns me is that PGI hasn't really responded back to the voices here.

This single thread pretty much grows to be the largest, most debated topic in the feedback forums. There are so many great suggestions listed here that I've scanned through, and every new patch it gets wiped only to rise up again within the new patch feedback.

Only to get filled again with the masses who feel ECM is completely borking the game.

I'm in this camp honestly. I'm a Legendary Founder, I love Mechwarrior, I played the heck out of this game for months and months through Beta and have certainly seen many things absolutely bork the game before.

The difference is that PGI tuned these things regularly and promptly, sometimes within a day or two of the patch (see when Artemis first was released).

I can't stomach playing the game in its current form. Sure I log in every now and then for kicks but I really can't play more than a few matches. I have a incredibly large variety of mechs in my lab and I can't find enjoyment in playing most any of them lately. Not because any one particular mech isn't fun to use (I love a bunch of them), but because ECM is so prevalent that the whole match at the moment seriously revolves around the mechs that DO have it equipped.


tl;dr - It saddens me that the only response to this ECM shenanigans has been PGI supposedly reducing the module's HP which in the scheme of things does nothing really to combat the problem. I also agree that something needs to be done about SSRMs, but the "end-all-be-all" should NOT be ECM.

I hope to see all you pilots again in the future. Until then I'll continue to lurk.

[Lyrik]

NuclearPanda, on 06 March 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I logged in to the forums, for the first time in months, just to chime in on this.

I've been mostly lurking these forums for at two months now, hoping to see some kind of community acknowledgement that ECM is a clusterf*** of wrong. I see that acknowledgement EVERY TIME a new Patch Feedback thread is created.

What concerns me is that PGI hasn't really responded back to the voices here.

PGI responds. Not by wasting time on noops who are more in the forums instead of adapting to the game. But implementing nerfs to ECM.

Ghostbear Gurdel, on 06 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Really? How is "I can hit you with Lasers" a counter for ECM? It is not. It is a basic game play mechanic that applies to all mechs. Maybe if lasers were attracted to ECM mechs it would be a counter. Yet ECM completely stops a basic game play mechanic, namely LRMs.

Aha, if you would play more instead of being a worthless forumwarrior you would see that LRM's Mech are not. All the LRM spam ingame shows me that ECM should rather need a buff.
SSRM doesn't need a nerf. Remove the A1 :-P

Buff ECM. ECM for my Hunch !!!