58 replies to this topic

[Elwood Blues]

When LRMs were somewhat nerfed before, PGI didn't give enough time for the community to adjust them. Instead, with ECM in the picture, LRMs were buffed because it didn't seem that they would have the damage opportunities they once had. So, now LRMs are a weapon that absolutely destroys a mech if it lands a few shots on it.

The expectation of the damage of LRMs is just too high. They are supposed to be a support weapon that softens up armor so direct fire weapons can take them out. It also should serve a role as a crit seeker on damaged mechs. The problem, again, is ECM. An LRM boat can become almost useless by a ECM heavy team that uses cover.

ECM still needs to be properly balanced so LRMs can be adjusted to be more in line with their role and not restricted to pug murdering.

Edited by Elwood Blues, 06 March 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[Joker Two]

Mawai, on 06 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Last I read LRMs were doing 1.8 damage/missile and SRMs were doing 2.5 damage/missile.

However, your test results would tend to explain some of my recent results in matches. I have been totally ripped apart by LRM fire .. folks in Line of Sight using Artemis and in some cases TAG.

Looks like LRM balance may be off again ... just like the time they changed the arcs so they came straight down ... though not quite so bad.

What I don't understand is ... didn't someone sit down and do the simple tests one of the players did on the Testing Ground map to see how effective LRMs (and all the other weapons) are?

This afternoon I am going to go back out and test other weapons, as well as try out LRMs in active games. Some people have said that the 'Mechs in the Testing Grounds have reduced armor, which wasn't the impression I got from the few MLAS salvoes I fired at them last night, but we'll see. I will document the results and post them tonight or tomorrow if anyone is interested. Larger sample size is better.

Edited by Joker Two, 06 March 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Aeolus Drift]

I agree that the damages should be toned down, though it might be possible that the necessary reduction in damage might be closer to something like 1.25 (as it was in mechwarrior 3) or 1.5 as opposed to the original 1 damage per missile as per rules of TT. however I suspect that in order to makeup for the damage you would have to be allowed to carry more ammunition in addition to a modest velocity boost, so that the potential for damage is not severely effected. I hope that if such a change was implemented that it would curve the alpha potential of mass LRM boats a tad, but would promote it becoming a more stable and consistent ordinance platform; making it an effective secondary weapon for mech's who don't use it as their primary, while also increasing the longevity of fire support mech's who utilize LRMs as their primary damage source.

[ICEFANG13]

CapperDeluxe, on 06 March 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Take a look on the other side of the LRMs instead of just on the side of being hit by them. Note that I only scarcely use LRMs, mostly on mediums as harassment not as a slow boat.


Firstly, the missile lock has to be maintained the entire flight, which means the LRM source cannot hit other targets between volleys. Additionally if the target moves behind cover the LRMs will either lose lock or smash against the cover. The target generally has a few to several seconds to react to the LRMs, so unless they are horribly slow or out of position they can many times get to cover. Also this lengthy flight time lets you know pretty much exactly the position of the source LRM mech.

Second is AMS, while currently not heavily used will likely see an increase in usage due to the newly discovered effectiveness of LRMs. Since AMS can be mounted by multiple mechs to protect each other this can further reduce the effectiveness of LRMs.

Thirdly, ECM mechs merely need to be in the vicinity of an LRM source to completely remove its fire effectiveness.

Fourthly, the damage from LRMs spread over the entire mech rather than pinpoint precision like snipers. While this has its uses it generally leads to slower Time to Kill.

With Artemis now, the missiles are far too tight to be worked on by AMS, AMS already sucks completely, but with that helix moving onto you, AMS is even worse. The helix hits the center torso consistently. I mean its killing mechs in 1 to 4 volleys with low LRM amounts. They take less time to fly now, so getting to cover isn't always an option, it also makes them easier to use.

ECM will always be too good at this rate, and LRMs will be too good unless ECM completely counters them (wooo). Its a terrible balance, but LRMs now are so effective that I considered getting ECM last night on an Atlas. That's extreme for me.

[John MatriX82]

Ok, now I've been meeting several LRMs with artemis (the concentration of the path is very high) and they are near the first Artemis LRM opness.. of the patch with the vertical drop of the lrms back some months ago.

They are ridicolously effective.

Edited by John MatriX82, 06 March 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[Fooooo]

I've never used an lrm boat before tonight.

Tonight I got my stalker and heh, yeah....


Whilst it does have some drawbacks going almost all LRM's, namely I'm screwed once caught out by any mech, it is devastating against any enemy in the open even without artemis. (I have not tried artemis on it atm)

The game I just had on alpine was a slaughter.

I would support a reduction in dmg, however I guess I would also prefer an increase in cooldown.

Or maybe somehow limit it so you can only fire 1 launcher at a time, at 1 or 2 sec (or higher) intervals with no dmg reduction. (you could have it so different size lrm's have different waiting periods also, or firing an alpha requires a longer waiting time etc)

I don't know what I would really do, what I do know is against uncoodinated teams the other guys are generally just food it seems. (most 4man premades seem to handle it fine, the ones I have faced so far that is)

If the other team doesn't have ecm they are double screwed (I have tag but at least I cant target them all at will if they have it), and it feels sorta cheap using it.....

Edited by Fooooo, 06 March 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[Splinters]

LRM's should be at 2.0 if we go to the original canon since our armor is 2x per ton (32 points instead of 16). I think the 1.8 isn't bad at all, if it was 1.7 or 1.75 that would be more than enough to balance them out. LRM's are heavy weapon systems that need ammo, so they are balanced in other ways.

Boaters are clearly hampered by the min range and I've killed many LRM's by closing inside that range. In 8-man LRM's aren't even very popular so I'm not sure where the concept is that reducing damage to LRMs will change anything.

I am not trying to be snarky, I just want to recommend the OP work on using cover more often. I don't die to LRM's often, I do die to AC's, SRM's and ML's a lot. LRM's are counterable, continue to work on new strategies would be suggestion to the OP.

-S

[Koshirou]

Splinters, on 06 March 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

LRM's should be at 2.0 if we go to the original canon since our armor is 2x per ton (32 points instead of 16).

Great idea! Of course, in this case the damage of all other weapons should also be doubled from the original canon! That makes sense, I guess...


... oh wait it doesn't. Not one bit.

[Victor Morson]

LRMs have trouble locking ECM targets.
LRMs can get totally disabled by close range ECM.
LRMs have a huge minimum range.
LRMs have major difficulty hitting lighter targets without TAG and direct LOS.

LRMs are, effectively, a niche weapon at the absolute best right now. I like them, but I wouldn't want a team running too many on most maps. ECM is simply too hard a counter. If you reduced the LRM damage, I believe all that would happen is you'd never see them on the field in a competent configuration again.

Edited by Victor Morson, 06 March 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Faydeaway]

I think LRMS can be very powerful or completely ineffective depending on the circumstances. As someone else pointed out, they're a niche weapon.

ECM, cover, AMS, and minimum distance requirements are just a few of the mechanisms that can reduce or completely negate LRM threats. LRMs are my least *accurate* weapon and I'm not in the habit of just tossing volleys out there willy-nilly. I take into account the enemy's cover, distance, relative position, and also gauge how long the target lock is likely to last before I start lobbing LRMS. Even so, my accuracy is only around 29% with LRMS (Profile -> Weapon stats).

I'm not arguing PGI shouldn't look at LRM balance and make sure it's where it needs to be. But I've also been sniped by gauss/AC/ERPPC boats and they don't have to struggle against ECM, AMS, or minimum engagement distances to deal out significant damage. I'm not even going to gripe about teammates who don't target lock, or who face hug the enemy, or play musical chairs with their target locks. A LRM volley is also a giant flare broadcasting your location to every enemy player on the map.

[Koshirou]

Victor Morson, on 06 March 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

LRMs have trouble locking ECM targets.
LRMs can get totally disabled by close range ECM.

And here I'm going to say it again: The problem is not LRMs. The problem is not ECM (although that one does have issues on its own.) The problem is the binary opposition of these two systems. A hard counter against an otherwise extremely potent weapon system, and both may or may not be present on the battlefield due to the random nature of PUGs: This almost automatically results in many one-sided, unfun games.

Reduce effective LRM damage but also reduce their vulnerability to ECM. And speed them up a little for viability and improved aesthetics.

[Tombstoner]

Critical Fumble, on 05 March 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Theoretically, I could agree to 1 damage a missile for LRMs provided they were no longer directly negated by ECM, and that they had their speed increased to 500 or 700 m/s.

I'm fuzzy on the specifics, but I think they ought not let multiple LRM buffs stack on a target. Possibly make only the best buff count with Narc being the best, Artemis being second, and TAG being the least helpful.

_{With the off-topic SRM bit, I think they ought to make them follow a cylinder, not a cone, as they diminish in effectiveness right out of the tube, making them best as a run up and melt peoples' faces off weapon, which is a rather. . . screwy game element.}

ECM shouldn't be an all or nothing situation, yes some things do penetrate the ecm but its not reliable. narc LOL short. tag bring your own or go without = no indirect fire.

Shifting ECM to slowing lock on times and countering Artemis then lowering damage is a good place to start.

not going to happen i can foresee tipple armor on the horizon.

[John MatriX82]

ECM can be nullified in no time by other ECMs and self Tagging boats. Now Artemis groups missiles incredibly, leading to instant coring with 1 concentrated salvo.

They must be fixed, I've nothing against getting killed by a stream of LRMs because I chose the worst moment or I didn't cared about where I was going to move, but that grouping combined with abnormous boats are rendering the game a LRMfest even with ECM around.

None of the two systems is balanced now, as streak srms aren't either. Yet.

[KahnRa]

As someone who loves their LRM Stalker, even I think they need nerfing. 2 x ALRM20, 2 x ALRM15, TAG, I one shotted a full health HBK that was charging me last night.

Of course there is also some discussion going around that something funny is happening with armour and damage transfer, which could be contributing....

[Royalewithcheese]

I think they're fine. They hurt a lot more now, but if you get caught out in the open it's kind of your own fault.

[Critical Fumble]

Royalewithcheese, on 06 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I think they're fine. They hurt a lot more now, but if you get caught out in the open it's kind of your own fault.

I think that's half the problem with the system, though. When someone gets beaten senseless by LRMs, its never, "Damn, nice shot," its, "Eliot, you IIIIDIOT! Why didn't you run for cover!?"

[Sheraf]

I'm always use my LRM with artemis. The new flying formation is nice, but because they look pretty don't stand there and look at them . other than that everything else is still normal. Ecm still disable my LRM. People move in and out of cover to shoot me causing me trouble to counter.

[Rubidiy]

actually I'm startled...
Do devs ever test their weapon tweaks??? Not properly for sure.
Before latest patch came into our nightmares, if you got caught in the open while moving from cover to cover by enemy LRMs it was irritating, but not fatal. You were getting a lot of damage spreaded out across your body. After patch your components are litteraly being ripped off by ridiculously concentrated missile packs. And why? You even didn't make any mistake. You were just caught in the middle of the action by some one-button-dude who didn't put any effort or skill to that click. Getting half of your armor ripped off was one thing but being totally screwed because once in a match there was no cover in vicinity of 100m is definitely an abysmal weapon balance. I'm trying but I just can't justify such things. Those changes are being thrown at us without any testing at all, and now we should wait an eternity for them being fixed, while thousands of players will abuse this gameplay ruining balance... not to mention that there already were a lot of balance issues.

[Noth]

All I can say is that in a group LRMs are still easily countered and ECM still easily eliminates them. In PUGs it is very hit or miss. They can either dominate the battlefield of be rendered useless. I think the LRMs and in turn the ECM need reworked rather than just their numbers/spread played with. There were numerous topics about it right before OB and a little after OB. Also around the time artemis was over buffed and then nerfed. A rework of how they work is the only way they can be properly balanced.

[Rubidiy]

Elwood Blues, on 06 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

The problem, again, is ECM. An LRM boat can become almost useless by a ECM heavy team that uses cover.

ECM still needs to be properly balanced so LRMs can be adjusted to be more in line with their role and not restricted to pug murdering.

Just for you to know, skilled LRM boats always position themselves for direct sight of an enemy. You have TAG, you have PPC, you have adv.sensor range module. Use them properly. Indirect fire from the other end of a map should be ineffective or just slightly effective. Otherwise every round will become a dull standing behind cover until enemy's LRM ammo is depleted.
Though i agree with everything you wrote before starting on ECM. As you've said, LRM boats are support class mechs. Don't expect being effective in random team. You have to combine your efforts with your friends to spot enemies, to counter their ECMs, to disable them by PPCs or designate ECM covered foes by TAG or NARC (wich also have to be rebalanced). Otherwise, yes, your LRMs will become useless which is only fair for a player who stands far away in safety and doesn't even bother to TAG his target or hit it by PPC so he does no aim at all.