152 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

When individual weapons are in balance, the boats that use them are in balance.

Correct. SRM6s are unbalanced regardless of whether you have one of them or six.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 12 March 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Correct. SRM6s are unbalanced regardless of whether you have one of them or six.

how?

Kill there damage? Increase the RoF.
What about SRM4 and 2?

I think best way would be to decrease the velocity of SRMs. But allow them a lock on target with a smooth homing ability (not as good as Streak)and a minimum range of 20m.

So AMS will be able to shot down SRMs. lights can doge them like they do with lrms. that shouldn't affect mechs those primary weapons are not SRMs.

[ego1607]

I personaly don't have a problem with boats. A player with a little expirience, situational awareness and a balanced loadout mech will usually blast a boat with no problems. They are effective as a part of a well coordinated group, and that's something that shouldn't be discouraged.

[Aldon]

Weatherman, on 07 March 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

You can still dream up funky builds, you just can't design something outrageous that goes completely against canon. And these "arbitrary" rules that we are proposing do not "force" players to run standard builds; they force players to run more realistic and more balanced builds.

Also, about "pure" competition, last I checked the people who ran balanced builds or stock mechs weren't the ones going all pure competition. No, pure competition goes to the various leagues and such. I am talking teams with 8 D-DCs, or 6 splat cats and two D-DCs, or GaussCats with ECM backup of some kind. That sir is competition. That sir is intentionally breaking canon to simply have the most OP build you can have. That sir, is what I want to change.

I completely understand your viewpoint. I just don't agree with you. I don't care about "canon" at all. I also don't think any of the builds in question is OP. For the record I don't play a splatcat. It seems like it would be incredibly boring.

[Loc Nar]

b b-but some mechs only have 1 type of hardpoint. Besides, there's a way to sink any boat, usually lots of ways.

[Aldon]

Khobai, on 11 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Wrong. The problem is weapons themselves.

Go compare an SRM6 to a medium laser... SRM6 is outright better for damage per heat. The weapons are not balanced. Boating just make unbalanced weapons more obvious.

At lease make a fair argument. Weapons can only be compared if you take all factors into account.

SRM2 weighs 1 ton. It needs ammo and has a max range of 270M. Effective range is usually much less. It does 5 damage per shot and the heat is 2.

Medium laser weighs 1 ton. It doesn't need ammo. The range is 270M-540M. It does 5 damage per shot and the heat is 4.

I would say the medium laser is a better weapon by a slight margin actually.

[TheRulesLawyer]

What they really need to do is nerf group and alpha fire. Make it so that the more weapons you fire at once, the lower damage they each do. If you want to get full damage from weapons you'd need to chain fire them one at a time.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Aldon, on 13 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

At lease make a fair argument. Weapons can only be compared if you take all factors into account.

SRM2 weighs 1 ton. It needs ammo and has a max range of 270M. Effective range is usually much less. It does 5 damage per shot and the heat is 2.

Medium laser weighs 1 ton. It doesn't need ammo. The range is 270M-540M. It does 5 damage per shot and the heat is 4.

I would say the medium laser is a better weapon by a slight margin actually.

No its the second best weapon, the SRM 6 is hands down the best weapon per ton vs damage.

[Royalewithcheese]

DPS/ton and alpha/ton is actually better on the small laser and medium laser if you factor in that SRMs need ammo. But IMO there's not necessarily anything wrong with the SRMs - you see a lot of them because they're three of a handful of weapons that are consistently good in close combat.

[4er3BaPa]

not right. not only weap or boats disbalance - its couple of all dsibalance problems.
special loadouts not the disbalance problem.
bad luck with mathmaker - all my failure. half of math i set for Alpine with close loads and other math i forced to play with inoperative supporting loads in a hurdle-race game.
multi-role loads - has a half of powers in both situation

without size limits for weapon crits - all current mechs equate the clanners omni-mech variants <- see this?

[Kmieciu]

When you are standing right next to the enemy, SRM6 is the best weapon, even without HSR. With HSR, it will be godlike.
My ping is about 130 and it`s a challenge to reliably hit an enemy moving at over 100 kph with a SRM. But I've seen people with 20-30 ping one shoting Ravens running @ 150 kph. Host State Rewind for SRMs will be a game changer.

[Alienfreak]

Would be easy to fix if PGI cared. Possible ways:

1. Introduce MW4 like system which naturally limits powergaming and boating.
2. Make all weapons chainfire (or maybe in groups of 2). This would limit the effectiveness of having a lot of the same weapons. Plus it would get closer to the TT. Weapons there are balanced because they spread out the damage over the mech but in this game you can just aim for the center torso all day and everything of your 8 M-Laser combo will hit the center torso infliciting insane damage.

[Karl Streiger]

I have made a poll for adressing this and other topics...concerning the same, please vote

http://mwomercs.com/...st-discussions/

[Khobai]

Quote

how?

Kill there damage? Increase the RoF.
What about SRM4 and 2?

Because just compare an SRM6 to a medium laser... its doing three times the damage for the same heat. Plus SRMs do splash damage which amplifies their damage insanely against small mechs like Commandos.

[M4rtyr]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 13 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

No its the second best weapon, the SRM 6 is hands down the best weapon per ton vs damage.

My 4SP and splatacat agree with this.

SRM's don't need the damage buff they have (nor do LRM's). My position is they never have. But when you add in the fact that missile splash damage is in ADDITION to their regular damage... thats two seperate damage buffs they are benefiting from.

People talk about how you r can pinpoint with other weapons and missiles spread, SRM have a short effective range and are hard to hit with. Blah blah... Look at my stats since the reset, all I've used are my 4SP and cat. I just maxed out the Cat's basic skills and don't have money for the next variant so I'm using my 4SP. I'd guessing about 75% of the kills I have with my 4SP are all from the SRM's. So its disadvantages certainly don't seem to be an issue.

Missiles do too much damage, period. They don't need complicated changes, they just need the damage increase rolled back to their base and everything is fine. Boats aren't so problematic any more.

But over all yes its the weapons that are the problem not the mechs.

[Phades]

StalaggtIKE, on 06 March 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Agreed. The fact you are required to take a laser hardpoint to use missile hardpoint is just..., I can't even come up with a word to describe it:
http&#58;//img407.imageshack.us/img407/7493/276253papeldeparedememe.jpg

In all seriousness though is the mind screw that TAG works at all in direct line of sight and isn't relegated to a spotter at all.

[Royalewithcheese]

Alienfreak, on 15 March 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

1. Introduce MW4 like system which naturally limits powergaming and boating.

Did you play MW4?

[Khobai]

MW4 had the right idea but the wrong implementation. You saw way more variation in MW4 because you could mount so many more weapons. And that was a good thing. The problem with MW4 is the weapon balance was poorly handled. MWO on the other hand is the opposite extreme... its too prohibitive. And because its so prohibitive, theres a need to make every hardpoint count, and players tend to boat way more. I mean its just a simple fact of the game, when you limit hardpoints like that, its going to be much better to specialize your build.

Edited by Khobai, 15 March 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Kaziganthi]

Sybreed, on 05 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

This is just a reminder for people who want some weapon systems to be nerfed (notably, LRMs and SRMs)

These systems, when used by TT "standards", by this I mean 2XLRM15, 2XLRM20, 1XLRM20, 2xLRM10, 1xLRM10 (mediums anyone?), etc, are balanced.

It's when a mech can fire 50-60 LRMs or more at once that they become a problem.

It's when a mech can fire 18-30 SRMs at once that they are a problem.

So, don't blame the game imbalance on the weapons, blame it on your precious mech customization and the fact that PGI let you boat anything.

If you nerf weapon systems, you will hurt more those guys who want to use balanced builds than the boaters.

edit: For new readers, there are about 2-3 pages where we suggest a new way the hardpoint system could work that would still permit customization and to some extent boating, but would limit abuse like the 6 PPC stalker and splatcat.

and what about the mechs that boat more than 2 or 3 lasers/ppcs. It is the same issue. If your going to address boating..address all boating..not just missiles because you don't know how to use cover effectively at ranges greater than 200m.

If your calling to have missile hardpoints locked at 1-2 per mech, then you should be calling for the same for ALL weapons.

[M4rtyr]

Kaziganthi, on 15 March 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

and what about the mechs that boat more than 2 or 3 lasers/ppcs. It is the same issue. If your going to address boating..address all boating..not just missiles because you don't know how to use cover effectively at ranges greater than 200m.

If your calling to have missile hardpoints locked at 1-2 per mech, then you should be calling for the same for ALL weapons.

To counter laser/PPC boating its easy. There is a MASSIVE hole in the game mechanics PGI has implemented. The only heat penalty is shutdown. If they would implement the other heat penalties then you are going to see a change. Especially ammo explostions.

Yeah yeah, energy weapon boats won't have ammo... well they might have AMS or maybe some small launcher. But even the targeting penalties would be helpful.

the other help to all direct fire weapons would be somehow spreading out the hits so that pinpoint convergence isn't being so much trouble. Thats harder to accomplish without taking the targeting out of a players hands though.