43 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Rhent, on 06 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Go figure, someone is trying to use table top rules to apply to a First Person Shooter game. Imagine if someone took HALO and turned it into a turn based strategy game and then people came in from playing the FPS version and complained about how the Needler wouldn't work that way in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME.

Go figure. Someone is referencing the material this game is designed around. How dare they bring Battletech into this game based off Battletech! Imagine if the people complaining about the source material went and actually read some of it instead of just assuming it shouldn't apply and they knew better than people who have been dealing with a rule set that has been balanced by over 30 years of play. A lot of the imbalances in MWO are because they HAVEN'T stuck with the TT material.



As far as boating goes. Very few builds do it in TT because it has limited use there. Convergence in MWO makes boating more worthwhile. Instead of 4 Medium Laser shots doing the same damage as an AC/20 shot but doing it to a few different spots of the mech you have 4 Medium Lasers that do pinpoint damage like an AC/20 for a bit more heat and a lot less weight crit space and without worrying about ammo. Implimenting Lasers like they did in MWO instead of previous MW titles has helped some as it tends to spew damage all over the mech unless it is moving very slow.

Boating 4 PPCs though... which all hit roughly the same spot... That is a bit more potent as anyone hit by a sniper with a load-out like that can attest to. It's a bit overboard with those type of weapons or SRMs, but at least with the SRMs they have limited ammo and I can kill them before they step into range. PPCs tend to run hot so hopefully you can make them miss their first couple salvos and then close in or smack them back while they are cooling down.


No, boating isn't natural in TT but here, where the, "I must specialize." gaming mindset takes hold, you will obviously see it. Specializing has advantages and flaws but the way some people play and their opponents counter play leads to those advantages being greater than the flaws. After all, when everyone moves into hugging range to fight Splattapults become insanely powerful as do 3 SRM6, AC/20, 2 Medium Laser Atlas. I notice Alpine has taken a bit of the bite out of those mechs.

[kiltymonroe]

Mercules, on 06 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

As far as boating goes. Very few builds do it in TT because it has limited use there. Convergence in MWO makes boating more worthwhile. Instead of 4 Medium Laser shots doing the same damage as an AC/20 shot but doing it to a few different spots of the mech you have 4 Medium Lasers that do pinpoint damage like an AC/20 for a bit more heat and a lot less weight crit space and without worrying about ammo. Implimenting Lasers like they did in MWO instead of previous MW titles has helped some as it tends to spew damage all over the mech unless it is moving very slow.

No, boating is incredibly effective in TT too. Play against an OpFor composed entirely of Hellstars and see how poorly it works out for them (hint: not poorly at all).

TT designs aren't just terrible, they are deliberately terrible. They were intentionally given critical design flaws because BT is a tactical war game, and using your forces in a way that minimizes their faults is challenging and the source of the game's fun. That doesn't carry over well to an FPS simulator.

If you want to play TT 'mechs, play TT.

[Yankee77]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 March 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

While valid, Boating is more for specalized builds.

the problem with boating in general is that, boating turns EVERY build into a specalized build, instead of being a generalist as most mechs are intended to be.

Well said.

Of course, the reason lore and TT uses generalist builds is because it's actually much harder to modify a mech in "reality" than through our mechlab. If we went with a "proper" TT mechlab, we'd have to pay for every change, every change would take time (change loadout? mech is out of commision for the next week), and every change would have an outright chance to fail because the techs failed their roll (this is of course where omnimechs had an edge, they can easily change weapons pods).

Furthermore, in lore and TT it's hard to tell exactly what kind of fight you'll get into in advance, and losing a fight HURTS. Unlike MWO where we gleefully fight to the death and then fight again 2 minutes later, in lore and TT campaigns losing a mech is a huge deal. Heck, getting a mech BEAT UP is a huge deal (here we go again, with repair downtime and tech maybe failing their rolls).

You really don't want to be stuck in a position where the enemy can strip away your armor and you can't even fight back, because you REALLY can't afford to get your mech beat up (or worse, lose it and become dispossessed). So most mechs have balance loadouts, design to fight at a variety of range (or else the mechs are fast enough to force their best range). That wait you can always fight back and be useful in a fight.

Now, the interesting part is that if you think of your team as a single unit, loading "balanced" mechs starts to actually make sense, and even resembles tabletop a bit. If, for example, everyone is sporting a PPC, LRM, and MLs, each individual mechs won't have massive alphas, but all will be able to combine their firepower at all ranges.

Just my two cents.

[Escef]

Demos, on 06 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

AWE-X and CAT-X are experimental designs.

He's using the "X" in this case to fill in for any designator.

Almost every canon Awesome boats PPCs. The Flashman boats Large Lasers. Catapults, Archers, Longbows, Apollos, and Vikings all boat LRMs. The Kintaro and Arctic Wolf boat SRMs. The Nova (Blackhawk) Prime boats ER medium lasers, the Hunchback 4P and the Komodo boat medium lasers. The Masakari (Warhawk) Prime boats ER PPCs. The Thunderhawk boats Gauss Rifles.

There is nothing wrong with boating.

[Yankee77]

Escef, on 06 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

He's using the "X" in this case to fill in for any designator.

Almost every canon Awesome boats PPCs. The Flashman boats Large Lasers. Catapults, Archers, Longbows, Apollos, and Vikings all boat LRMs. The Kintaro and Arctic Wolf boat SRMs. The Nova (Blackhawk) Prime boats ER medium lasers, the Hunchback 4P and the Komodo boat medium lasers. The Masakari (Warhawk) Prime boats ER PPCs. The Thunderhawk boats Gauss Rifles.

There is nothing wrong with boating.

The difference is in TT the damage gets spread all over. Not so MWO.

Take the Awesome in TT and in MWO (the classic 3 PPC build). Yes, in TT its a formidable mech (mostly because armor isn't doubled), but imagine if its weapons were "fire linked" and hit the same location all the time? It'd be coring stuff all the time.

So yeah, there IS a significant difference, and its all about weapons convergence.

Granted, I'm not sure what should be done about it, if anything, but it certainly makes boating significantly more valuable in MWO than in TT.

[Stoicblitzer]

I used to like you WolvesX.

[Escef]

Itkovian, on 06 March 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

The difference is in TT the damage gets spread all over. Not so MWO.

[snip]

So yeah, there IS a significant difference, and its all about weapons convergence.

Granted, I'm not sure what should be done about it, if anything, but it certainly makes boating significantly more valuable in MWO than in TT.

Trust me, I know. I started playing table top when I was 11. The lack of random hit locations changes a lot of things. But that's the nature of the beast. And I don't think anything should be done about it. It's fine as is. Let them pay the price for over specialization.

[MustrumRidcully]

Itkovian, on 06 March 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

The difference is in TT the damage gets spread all over. Not so MWO.

Take the Awesome in TT and in MWO (the classic 3 PPC build). Yes, in TT its a formidable mech (mostly because armor isn't doubled), but imagine if its weapons were "fire linked" and hit the same location all the time? It'd be coring stuff all the time.

So yeah, there IS a significant difference, and its all about weapons convergence.

Granted, I'm not sure what should be done about it, if anything, but it certainly makes boating significantly more valuable in MWO than in TT.

The table top stats basically account for this in weapon balance. It is not really good at it, but for example, An AC/20 is much more expensive in terms of weight investment required for the weapon, heat sinks and ammo then 4 Medium Lasers. Both deal the same damage, but one spreads, the other destroys hit locations.

So the consequence for an "FPS" like game like MW:O, it means that either the high damage weapon need to deal even more damage, or the low damage weapon need to deal even a bit less damage. (Or you make some weights heavier or lighter. But that only works if you don't care to replicate stock configurations to the T.)

[Royalewithcheese]

Itkovian, on 06 March 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

The difference is in TT the damage gets spread all over. Not so MWO.

Take the Awesome in TT and in MWO (the classic 3 PPC build). Yes, in TT its a formidable mech (mostly because armor isn't doubled), but imagine if its weapons were "fire linked" and hit the same location all the time? It'd be coring stuff all the time.

I wonder if that's a boating specific thing, though? It certainly helps 6xPPC Stalkers, but AFAIK it's not too hard to focus different types of weapons on the same location in most shorter-range fights.

[Mercules]

kiltymonroe, on 06 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

No, boating is incredibly effective in TT too. Play against an OpFor composed entirely of Hellstars and see how poorly it works out for them (hint: not poorly at all).

TT designs aren't just terrible, they are deliberately terrible. They were intentionally given critical design flaws because BT is a tactical war game, and using your forces in a way that minimizes their faults is challenging and the source of the game's fun. That doesn't carry over well to an FPS simulator.

If you want to play TT 'mechs, play TT.

You are talking about an Assault Clan mech using some of the best technology available, of course it is effective. It would be just as effective if it swapped one of the ERPPCs and a few heat sinks for an LRM 20. Lets not forget it's Battle Value is also TWICE that of an Awesome.

In fact a variant version swaps in ER Large Lasers for the ER PPCs and gets to add some Medium Pulse Lasers, BAP and ECM. Moving it a bit further from boating while leaving it about as powerful.

Also, it isn't that Boating doesn't work in TT but that most mechs are built for variable uses. ER PPCs are one of those, "It works well nearly everywhere." weapons who's only drawback is the heat it generates, the Clan version is better too. On a Clan Assault that can carry the obscene amount of DHS needed for that weapon it's one drawback goes away.

[Mercules]

Royalewithcheese, on 06 March 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

I wonder if that's a boating specific thing, though? It certainly helps 6xPPC Stalkers, but AFAIK it's not too hard to focus different types of weapons on the same location in most shorter-range fights.

It is though. The reason 6 PPC "works" is because they all share the same travel time and firing nuances. Try hitting a moving target while moving at 1k meters with 6 different weapons like, AC/2, ERLL, AC/5, Gauss Rifle, PCC, and AC/10. The three ACs alone have different travel speeds. The Gauss Rifle and PPC don't match up with any of them either and the ERLL is hitscan. You simply can't hit 1 spot with all those different travel times UNLESS the mech stands still for you and you are moving very slowly or stopped. Heck, you would be lucky to get all those weapons to hit the mech if fired on the same trigger and it was moving at all.

[Elizander]

Royalewithcheese, on 06 March 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

That's a pretty big disadvantage, though. Stuff overheats fast in this game, and any hot build that runs into something it can't alpha down is in serious trouble.

I die a lot due to shutdowns now that I'm running a 6 LL/ 1 MPL Awesome. I just guess wrong if I core something or if they twist in time and then bad stuff happens to me.

[Satan n stuff]

Mercules, on 06 March 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

It is though. The reason 6 PPC "works" is because they all share the same travel time and firing nuances. Try hitting a moving target while moving at 1k meters with 6 different weapons like, AC/2, ERLL, AC/5, Gauss Rifle, PCC, and AC/10. The three ACs alone have different travel speeds. The Gauss Rifle and PPC don't match up with any of them either and the ERLL is hitscan. You simply can't hit 1 spot with all those different travel times UNLESS the mech stands still for you and you are moving very slowly or stopped. Heck, you would be lucky to get all those weapons to hit the mech if fired on the same trigger and it was moving at all.

Actually the PPC matches the AC/2 in that case, and at close range it wouldn't matter either way because on anything that isn't running over 100 kph you could easily hit with all of them at once. Also your own speed is completely irrelevant when it comes to projectile travel times, it just makes it slightly harder to gauge the target's speed.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 06 March 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Escef]

***** n stuff, on 06 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Also your own speed is completely irrelevant when it comes to projectile travel times.

But it does make gauging how much to lead the target harder.

[Stone Profit]

LordDante, on 06 March 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

play wang
feel elite

I love to play with my Wang. One might say I am THE WANG MASTER!

Elizander, on 06 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

I die a lot due to shutdowns now that I'm running a 6 LL/ 1 MPL Awesome. I just guess wrong if I core something or if they twist in time and then bad stuff happens to me.

Perhaps you should l2manageheat....

[Satan n stuff]

Escef, on 06 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

But it does make gauging how much to lead the target harder.

Ninja edited.

[Terror Teddy]

Eldragon, on 06 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

None of the mechs you listed are watercraft. I'm so confused.

Thank you for that - I needed that laught.

[Mercules]

***** n stuff, on 06 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Actually the PPC matches the AC/2 in that case, and at close range it wouldn't matter either way because on anything that isn't running over 100 kph you could easily hit with all of them at once. Also your own speed is completely irrelevant when it comes to projectile travel times, it just makes it slightly harder to gauge the target's speed.

Right... PPC and AC/2 are both travel speed of 2k I was thinking the AC/2 was like 2.2k for some reason. What is "close range"? When I am dealing with this type of weaponry close range is "effective range". For a PPC that is like 540m. In addition it is NOT easy to hit even at close range, with SRMs, Lasers, and ACs all on the same trigger if the target is moving perpendicular to you and even 200m away. You have to lead different amounts for the different weapons and Lasers you don't lead at all.

Boating a bunch of weapons on the same trigger is solid because you only have to consider one vector, simple and easy.

[Sayyid]

Demos, on 06 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

The number of real Boating designs like HBK-4P, AWS-8Q, Longbow-0W will be app. at 5-10%

Here let me help you all out.

HBK-4P is the only boat in that bunch.

AWS-8Q is a direct fire long range support mech, and not a boat.

Longbow is a LRM indirect/direct missile support mech. Again not a boat.

This would be like saying a ARC-2R is a LRM boat.

The only mechs I would like added in game wont make it into the game due to the "unseen" rules.

ARC-2R/ARC-2K
Shadow Hawk

[Corvus Antaka]

i wonder how many of you liked boating when I floor stomped you with my dual ac20 thor with a MASC in mech3.