15 replies to this topic

[Snib]

Hitting a Commando's destroyed leg hit side torso and, after that is gone, the center torso. However, considering I'm shooting 4x LL at it the damage which is actually registering is much too low:






That was bad. Tried a Cicada at range, was even hitting back armor by shooting the missing leg from the front, but again not for full damage:




So I thought, let's get a little closer and aim even lower at the theoretically no longer existing foot. That made it even worse, my shots hitting even the arms now:




Ok, so destroyed legs are still there, but destroyed arms fall off. Does it make a difference? No! When you shoot the empty air where the arm was you hit the side torso instead:



The only upside to shooting the Atlas was that it did seem to take more damage from my shots than the light and medium mechs.

No wonder this game feels a little random...

edit:
And if all of this is actually working as intended (see discussion below) then make this post a [POV]. It is a terrible terrible mechanic. This is not table top. We can actually aim. We should hit what we aim for, not some dice rolled location elsewhere. It is not logical. It takes no skill.

Being able to shoot a mech's arm off by shooting a destroyed foot is just wrong. Being able to kill a mech by shooting the empty air where its arm used to be is equally wrong. I do not want to play a game like that.

Edited by Snib, 06 March 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Kmieciu]

When they introduced the damage transfer in the closed beta I remember it was said that the damage is reduced by 50% for each component. That means if you hit a destroyed leg, it only does 50% to the side torso, and when the side torso is gone, it only does 25% damage to the center torso.

That's probably the reason why a Centurion is such a great zombie mech. Even if you destroy it`s arms, they act as a invisible shield that lowers the damage taken. I remember the times when there was no damage transfer, and a Centurion was invulnerable to side-coring :-)

Edited by Kmieciu, 06 March 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[Snib]

Kmieciu, on 06 March 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

When they introduced the damage transfer in the closed beta I remember it was said that the damage is reduced by 50% for each component. That means if you hit a destroyed leg, it only does 50% to the side torso, and when the side torso is gone, it only does 25% damage to the center torso.

Oh, so you're saying it's working as intended that hitting the destroyed foot does damage the center torso? Wasn't aware of that, and doesn't convince me as a sensible mechanic...

[Kmieciu]

Snib, on 06 March 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Oh, so you're saying it's working as intended that hitting the destroyed foot does damage the center torso? Wasn't aware of that, and doesn't convince me as a sensible mechanic...

I agree that it`s not very sensible, but the same applies to ammo explosions: they travel inward, each time being reduced by 50%. But the ammo explosions ignore armor, and they are so strong you don`t even notice the reduction in damage.

1 tonne of SRM ammo = 250 damage

A cicada has:

20 leg HP
20 side torso Hp
24 center torso HP

That means 250-20= leg destroyed 230 left -> 115 transfered to side torso - 20 = 95 side torso destoryed -> 47,5 transfered to center torso - 24 = mech destroyed.

So a single tonne of SRM ammo placed in a leg can destroy a cicada.

Edited by Kmieciu, 06 March 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Snib]

Kmieciu, on 06 March 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

I agree that it`s not very sensible, but the same applies to ammo explosions: they travel inward, each time being reduced by 50%. But the ammo explosions ignore armor, and they are so strong you don`t even notice the reduction in damage.

Well that part I was aware of and it does make sense since it "simulates" the explosion's shockwave. But hitting a missing foot or arm and that causing damage at the other end of the target seems something else entirely, which is why I thought this is a bug. I mean, I did shoot the missing foot and did hit center torso and arm, but not side torso. That's a bit random...

[Kmieciu]

Snib, on 06 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Well that part I was aware of and it does make sense since it "simulates" the explosion's shockwave. But hitting a missing foot or arm and that causing damage at the other end of the target seems something else entirely, which is why I thought this is a bug. I mean, I did shoot the missing foot and did hit center torso and arm, but not side torso. That's a bit random...

This system is a simplification, because it does not take the vector of the shot into account. It assumes you are trying to core the enemy, but the destroyed parts act as partial shields. That`s why torso twisting is so useful in this game: instead of 100% damage you might receive only 25%.

[Steel Will]

This needs to be fixed, especially on Centurions. Zombie Cents are ridiculous to finish off.

[TheRuslan]

Woow. Now I see true testing. (PGI, Go fire your TEST CREW, even blind ones)
This damage transfer from foot to torso is stupid and for this game, not suitable. (sim game).

I am dissapointed in PGI test crew, that even so simple task is too hard for them to do.


HIRE NEW CREW PGI !!!!! Old one is lame !

[warner2]

The leg I can agree with, it's still there. The arm part of the argument looks flawed. The arm is blown off, I think the hit box for the arm should be disabled, shouldn't it?

[Mad Porthos]

I believe this might explain the RAVEN's extraordinary ability to take damage, rather more like a Medium or Even a heavy mech. There are those who despite being in raven 3L, choose to use standard engines. I never knew why but was stunned to see they got very good kills despite only running around 97kph. The person I knew who was running ravens commented that Raven's have an unparalelled ability to zombie SPECIFICALLY because of how thier side torso's shield thier center torso.

Even when sporting an XL engine, since critical hits on the engine do not actually kill the mech, they have some benefit, since the left or right torso doesn't just have to be pierced, but all of it's internal structure needs to be completely destroyed in order to actually kill/disable the mech.

So a standard engine 3L can run around streaking and lasing targets, using it's damaged left and right torso's as "50% damage reductions shields" and if somehow a shot would hit them on where their ARMS would be, that too would be a further 50% damage reduction. Since the RAVEN has the bizzare effect of those left and right torsos stretching along and wrapping so far around it's center torso, it makes the raven far more durable than numbers imply.

Even the XL engine 3L could end up taking say... a PPC blast from the side, where it's arm was previously. Say the arm isn't even THERE. So the 10 damage of the ppc becomes 5 damage that transfers into the torso on that side. If there's armor or even internal structure there it's taken off of that... and the XL raven goes chugging on. If you finally knocked out the last of that torso, yes, you killed the XL Raven. But if it's a standard engine Raven and there's actually NO side torso left... the gist of this is that the 5 damage from the PPC to the arm (non existent), is now going to transfer to the central torso... but now it's only going to be maybe 2.5 points. Considering how much armor can be put on a raven's central torso front and rear, even that is surprisingly large amount of internal structure to try to kill your way through when your 10 point ppc hits are becoming 2.5 points. Imagine what happens to each little amount of small laser, medium laser or even large laser damage... or even missile damage, that hits these "Non Existant" locations, and gets halved, then halved again even. A single SRM missile hitting a raven arm, or side torso... 2.5 damage halved becomes 1.25 damage, or even .625 damage... doesn't a flamer do .6 damage or something like that?

So from this you can see a mech with a design where a left/right torso really wraps around the central torso from most all angles is going to be far more durable due to this bizarre shielding effect.

In Centurions I think this is probably happening as well, as noted by someone else in the thread. A centurion pilot who can in a trained manner use his arm as a shield, keeping it in the enemies face... still gets to use it even when it's blown off, because the shots that WOULD hit it, still hit it. These shots do no damage, since it's destroyed, but they would downgrade to half damage before hitting the side torso. If no side torso would be left, they'd down grade even further before hitting central torso. Once again, a PPC blast passing through a "non" existant centurion arm and torso, on a pilot who was just still instinctively "shielding" as a centurion tactic, would yeild a meagre 2.5 damage to the central torso.

I think this overall can really explain zombie mode for those who didn't get it before. I didn't, until this was explained to me recently and I think the OP or the one who explained it better in here probably heard from the same sources and read the same threads.

[mekabuser]

Im actually speechless. this needs to go to general discussion and raise a ruckus.. Im all for survivability but this mechanic makes no sense whatso ever.
It explains most of the wtf moments Ive had in this game..
In the interest of full disclosure. The spider I am sure gets the same benefit . Many times I dont even get hit.. because im awesome lol, but when Im last guy standing and 5 enemy open up on me, it takes ALOT of firepower to bring me down.. Even when ive kinda given up and just take it.

So essentially this discussion boils down to going at a mech from the side is really not fruitful .
You know, if i was single, Id have ******** diagrams of all these mechs taped to my desk with hit box locale. I would love to see some testing on the stalker. Trying to hit that thing head on is an exercise in frustration. Good luck hitting a side torso from the front. Or even CT, it seems it gets spread all over the place.

What a counter intuitive mechanic. You would think arm gone, torso gone.. Oh the ct is exposed.. Guess not.. guess not by a longshot.. Stupid.

[ragingmunkyz]

I don't see an issue with the damage transfer as it regards to destroyed legs or side torsos causing reduced damage to the nearest area. It makes some sense to me insofar as those parts aren't blown off. There could be vital wiring, or internal support structures that are all connected, thus more damage to those parts could further compromise the internal integrity of the mech, albeit at a reduced rate to direct damage.

Damaging blown off arms on the other hand...I can't imagine any scenario where this makes sense. In a skill shooter, you should only be able to hit and aim for what is actually modeled, not the air around it. Again, the legs are actually still there so you are actually aiming for and hitting something, but the arms, yeesh, that needs to be looked at.

Have to agree as well that this explains a few times when I've been incredibly frustrated while trying to finish off a zombie mech; when shooting from the side while they're torso-twisting, it was counting as me hitting the invisible arm hitbox instead of the visible torso hitbox.

Edited by ragingmunkyz, 07 March 2013 - 12:20 AM.

[BloodyDziq]

this is a huge problem with the arm hit boxes not being deleted when the arm is shoot off

[BlackDrakon]

They really have to fix it, its incredible how innacurate the damage transfer goes by this bug.

[Mad Elf]

The mechanic was understandable for TT, but in this game (except for ammo explosions), it's arrant nonsense.

Please fix.


(Worth considering: giving mech legs an extra hit point allocation, after which they're blown off completely and the mech falls over. Same as taking both legs off, but makes more visual sense than wasting damage on an already "completely destroyed" location. Or maybe just use internal structure for that?)

[Mad Elf]

Thontor, on 10 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

the hits to the leg transferring to side torso then center is working as intended..

"Working as intended" is not the same as "working sensibly". In this case, the intention was to duplicate the mechanics of the TT game, which took no account of player skill in aiming. The intention is wrong-headed and needs to be changed, and the implementation needs to be changed to fit.