242 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

I just realized the secret meaning of P2W isn't "Pay to Win", but "Play to Whine".


I do love how readily people on these Forums starting shouting "FIRE!!!!" before they even smell smoke.

http://mwomercs.com/...o-be-freetoplay

[Havyek]

Atheus, on 06 March 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Why would you assume I don't know what I'm talking about? Clearly I'm talking about the 3 different consumables that have been announced, not the 3 coolant flushes that can't be mounted simultaneously. Are you just here to make useless, distracting noise?

Had a response, then decided it wasn't worth the time or energy.

Feel free to continue crying about P2W, this is OP etc etc about items that haven't even been introduced yet.

[IceSerpent]

PANZERBUNNY, on 06 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

So some scrub can can 2 more alphas off in X amount of time...so what.

Kdogg788, on 06 March 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

There is no real advantage to getting the 35% vs. the 20%

TexAss, on 06 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

You two guys make so much sense

Can I have some of that stuff you guys have been smoking?

[Michael Costanza]

Kmieciu, on 06 March 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Yeah, how about 8 scurbs using D-DCs and 3Ls all with 4x Tier 3 consumables (Cooling, Artillery, Airstrike, UAV). Please tell me they don`t have distinct advantage...

Maybe we should wait until community warfare when those scubs conquer all the best planets...

Maybe we should wait until we see what Artillery, Airstrike and UAV do... Personally, I don't think the coolant module is more valuable than Advanced Sensor Range (which, among other things, allows me to fire LRMs at ECM targets before they get into minimum range).

Edited by Michael Costanza, 06 March 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[Bubba Wilkins]

The above chart was shamelessly stolen from the guides tab where Ohm's post should be re-pinned. MAKE IT SO!

I call everyone's attention to the Module columns and note that most mechs will be only able to equip 3 modules (with the grinded out extra slot included.) I do not have access to the stats, but I would guess based on what is currently available module wise that everyone usually goes with a sensor and target upgrade. An Artillary or Airstrike would be the obvious next choice to fill the last available slot. In my case, since I have 4 slots to work with...I'd go with both. But the bottom line is that while the MC-Flush is clearly superior to the other two, it is not going to be the default module of choice and likely will be equipped very rarely. Thus rendering the P2W argument void.

[vonWeber]

armyof1, on 06 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

It always amazes me when some people can't see what is happening and can't think just a little bit ahead to how things will be in the near future. To start selling consumables that will give you a clear, not huge, advantage only for real money is of course only the beginning. You think those number crunchers at IGP when they see that money is starting to turn in from these tier 3 consumables (and the money will start to come in, because some people will always try to get an edge to win even for a small sum of money) won't escalate with even better consumables for MC that will maybe cost just a little bit more? Really, you can't see how this will progress? Unless the actual developers of this game can get free from the moneygrubbers in suits, the fate of MWO is already decided on the 19th this month when MC will start to help you win. No it's not a big step, but it's a beginning and it's a gentle way to get you used to the idea, that will slowly progress until you've lost track of how it could have become so bad in the first place.

thats clearly just one of many possibilities.
yo claim

Atheus, on 06 March 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

The bottom line is in this PvP game, there WILL be a guy on the battlefield you are fighting on that has PURCHASED an item that gives him an advantage over you. You may lose the match as a result of this. When you lose because the other guy dumped some coin into a consumable, you will have been P2W'd. If you want to be sure you will never get beaten by larger wallet, you need to either pay to compete, find another game, or somehow get PGI to change their mind about superior MC-only equipment.

just saying he is one of 8 (12). now how big is his individual advantage over me? even perfectly used. one more alpha? would like to do a little math here. 8 mechs on both sides. capable of firing (to make thins easier) 3 alphas each (same damage). thats 24 vs 24 alphas. now team b has one spender. his advantage (actualy just 15% more than everyone else given same builds and all, but lets assume he has 35% more) brings us to 24 vs 25 alphas. in this one situation. after this, its all even.

so yeah, i think random stuff like parts of ur mech exploding by random chance, crits, etc. have much more influence over the outcome, given equal (lol) skill on both sides.

[Adridos]

Team Leader, on 06 March 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Everything is sub-par compared to a raven 3L

Unless you can aim, that is.

I wouldn' say it before, but hitting Ravens with state rewind is easy as cake... or as it should be, to be fair.
And that new cicada is nothing more than a really oversized Jenner. If I wanted to pilot a light, the Jenner is a better choice and if I wanted a 2xSRM6 + laser combo, the 4SP is superior.

Edited by Adridos, 06 March 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Team Leader, on 06 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Ok ok ok. Guys. Stop. This is in defense of Paul Inouye, not a discussion about the modules. Please discuss that somewhere else.

The best defense of Paul is a rational explanation of why this decision isn't the P2W boogie man it's being made out to be. Thus it is a discussion about modules.

[vonWeber]

Bubba Wilkins, on 06 March 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The best defense of Paul is a rational explanation of why this decision isn't the P2W boogie man it's being made out to be. Thus it is a discussion about modules.

qft

[Angus McBeef]

PANZERBUNNY, on 06 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Juicing up to mountain dew before playing or an energy drink is pay to win...but it's an outside 3rd party source. Is that considered a "hack or "cheat"?

If so, I admit to "hacking" every single time I play MWO.

[MadPanda]

I haven't read this thread so I'm just going to jump to conclusions; Paul Inouyuey is the devil. Rubberubelbeureurbelbleee!

[vonWeber]

Angus McBeef, on 06 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

If so, I admit to "hacking" every single time I play MWO.

yeah, if you realy think about it there is nver something like an equal playing field. theres ingame stuff like good (op) builds vs bad builts, good players against worse, high ping vs. low, much time on hand meaning much experience and credits but possibly less real income (unless your living of your daddys trust funds, playing mwo all day on your monster rig with crossfired titans, snorting ******* of your mousepad) vs less time (job, wife) but higher disposable income.
it just has to be limited to acceptable levels. and we did not cross this line (yet). all im saying.

[armyof1]

vonWeber, on 06 March 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

thats clearly just one of many possibilities.
yo claim


just saying he is one of 8 (12). now how big is his individual advantage over me? even perfectly used. one more alpha? would like to do a little math here. 8 mechs on both sides. capable of firing (to make thins easier) 3 alphas each (same damage). thats 24 vs 24 alphas. now team b has one spender. his advantage (actualy just 15% more than everyone else given same builds and all, but lets assume he has 35% more) brings us to 24 vs 25 alphas. in this one situation. after this, its all even.

so yeah, i think random stuff like parts of ur mech exploding by random chance, crits, etc. have much more influence over the outcome, given equal (lol) skill on both sides.

You see these little added advantages will spread frustration if you're on the side not buying them. You get killed a few times by that PPC Stalker or Splatcat that you swear should have overheated before killing you, or that last Airstrike that got you, would it have hit you so fast if it wasn't the MC version, could you have dodged it? It starts to make you think, could I have won if I had that tier 3 coolant and a spare slot for that quick tier 3 artillery strike? So you might start buying a few just to test out, get a couple good wins while using them and then you're hooked. It's when you have an added edge there that exists but you haven't used yet that can tip you over to become a buyer when things don't go well for you and you start to think why.

[StalaggtIKE]

In standard pug matches, a coolant flush will not make a difference. However it becomes a problem for the competitive scene. A coolant flush will make a hell of a difference. If, you shutdown, you will die. The reason some of you can't realize that, speaks volumes of your skill set or rather lack of.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 06 March 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Yokaiko]

StalaggtIKE, on 06 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

In standard pug matches, a coolant flush will not make a difference. However it becomes a problem for the competitive scene. A coolant flush will make a hell of a difference. If, you shutdown, you will die. The reason some of you can't realize that, speaks volumes of your skill set or rather lack of.

My main concern.

[MaddMaxx]

Kmieciu, on 06 March 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Yeah, how about 8 scurbs using D-DCs and 3Ls all with 4x Tier 3 consumables (Cooling, Artillery, Airstrike, UAV). Please tell me they don`t have distinct advantage...

Maybe we should wait until community warfare when those scubs conquer all the best planets...

LOL! Paranoid much. If any 8 players get that Mech line up together, with that Consumable payload, they would have to give up the tag you applied to them.

They would not be Scrubs no more, but a force to be reckoned with. If your crew would be unable to handle them, then it would be best just you all stay out of CW and save everyone even more QQ'ing about such things.

[Bubba Wilkins]

armyof1, on 06 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

It always amazes me when some people can't see what is happening and can't think just a little bit ahead to how things will be in the near future. To start selling consumables that will give you a clear, not huge, advantage only for real money is of course only the beginning. You think those number crunchers at IGP when they see that money is starting to turn in from these tier 3 consumables (and the money will start to come in, because some people will always try to get an edge to win even for a small sum of money) won't escalate with even better consumables for MC that will maybe cost just a little bit more? Really, you can't see how this will progress? Unless the actual developers of this game can get free from the moneygrubbers in suits, the fate of MWO is already decided on the 19th this month when MC will start to help you win. No it's not a big step, but it's a beginning and it's a gentle way to get you used to the idea, that will slowly progress until you've lost track of how it could have become so bad in the first place.

OT: I don't think the guys actually working on the game like Paul and the other at PGI wanted this, so I don't blame them for it. But those damn publishers, they will ruin this game because to them it means absolutely nothing unlike the actual developers.

And it always amazes me when people immediately assume the worst possible scenario is the only logical outcome. PGI has already demonstrated that they will implement MC only items that are different and unique, but otherwise on par with their cbill counterparts. The fact that the majority of people are NOT running Hero mechs is a testament to the fact that they are very cognizant of the line they walk in this regard.

The argument in this case is NOT that the MC flush is equivalent to the Cbill versions, the true argument is that it is not a clear and obvious choice over all of the other modules and consumables currently known. Sure, some may elect to go the MC Flush route, but most of us will likely be equipping other modules for their advantages instead. Any LRM based mech would be foolish to waste a slot on the MC Flush when Sensor Range and Target Lock are damn near requirements. Other roles have similar issues with making room for the MC Flush.

In fact, the only builds which the flushes make any sense at all are the SRM Cats and PPC boats. Neither of which is going to gain much over their baseline performance.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 06 March 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[vonWeber]

StalaggtIKE, on 06 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

In standard pug matches, a coolant flush will not make a difference. However it becomes a problem for the competitive scene. A coolant flush will make a hell of a difference. If, you shutdown, you will die. The reason some of you can't realize that, speaks volumes of your skill set or rather lack of.

talking bout pugmatches here, so spare your "IMPLIED" flame.
if you want to go competitive, be prepared to dump some bucks per month (meaning less bucks than you would pay for an mmo of your choice) into this game. its worth it. if your skillz are all that mighty you will now crush your opposition and refinance via cw income like in world of tanks.

Edited by vonWeber, 06 March 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Yokaiko]

vonWeber, on 06 March 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

talking bout pugmatches here, so spare your "IMPLIED" flame.
if you want to go competitive, be prepared to dump some bucks into this game. its worth it. if your skillz are all that mighty you will now crush your opposition and refinance via cw income like in world of tanks.

Exactly why I quit if the game goes that route.

[Elizander]

The issue with the coolant and MC consumables definitely pulls a negative reaction on first read. Perhaps if they made the MC version 30% compared to the C-bill version's total of 35% (15% + 20%) then it might not have been so bad, but regardless, if you look at it, it is difficult to bash a feature that we have not seen yet.

My main issue is the effect it can have on high alpha mechs and we'll literally have Atlases getting cored in 6 seconds in the CT (or three dead light mechs). If it flushes slow then it should be okay. They can even make the MC version flush slower or something. Still, even with these things in mind, I haven't seen it yet and I haven't seen how it affects the game. I also know that if it has terrible implementation that PGI will most likely do something to adjust it.

I'll reserve my judgement on it 'til a couple of weeks or so after implementation and I can't fault them for trying the "MC is an alternative option" route and they just happen to have a somewhat shaky start (though they should probably do a bit better in their communications when introducing future features that might rub the majority of vocal players the wrong way).

The fact that they priced it cheap (c-bills) (I think) means that it's not as bad as I initially thought. If it was anywhere near 30,000 or more then it would've horribly stunted the savings of non-paying players.

People will try these out and they will decide if the passive modules are competitive with the consumable ones. We'll see then, okay?