128 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

I'm surprised this one hasn't been posted yet.

However, leaving aside all the other issues about ECM ... which is another story altogether.

Compare the Raven-3L to all other light mechs
- 35 tons
- max speed about 150kph
- ECM (can not be targeted by LRM/SSRM unless ECM is countered)
- 3 lasers and 2 missile hard points
- can fit 2xSSRM2 or 2xSRM6 as desired
- can fit maximum armor for a light mech
- advantageous hit box - (the torso is long and narrow so when facing a target the aim has to be precise to hit it).

The only feature a Raven-3L lacks is jump jets (which can be useful in getting away or being a harder target ... and which are a lot of fun ... but don't make that big a difference)

NO other light mech has all these benefits ... particularly the ECM feature. ECM means that any other mech armed with SSRM can not hit it. In addition, the Raven still has 3 medium lasers or other energy weapons to back up the SSRMs.

In any 1:1 contest of light mechs between equally skilled pilots the Raven-3L will win.

This is NOT balanced.

Improvements to the netcode with state rewind will make ALL light mechs easier to hit. It affects all light mechs equally. However, the Raven-3L retains ALL the advantages outlined above even with state rewind. The Raven-3L thus remains unbalanced - the best of the light mechs - despite netcode improvements. You may see fewer light mechs as a result of netcode improvements making them more fragile ... but it doesn't affect the supremacy of the Raven-3L due to the combination of speed, armor, ECM and SSRM.

Commandos have less armor and are slower. Spiders do not have missile hard points. Jenners do not carry ECM. Raven-3L has it all and as a result is unbalanced compared to all other light mechs.

This has been known for months ... it would be nice to see some corrective action taken ... which would likely involve some change to the Raven-3L chassis OR a revised implementation of ECM combined with a proper balancing of SSRM and LRMs. The latter of which probably involves a lot of work.

Edited by Mawai, 06 March 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Lykaon]

Honestly it's not the Raven it's ECM + Streaks.

The 3L Raven is a symptom not the cause.

[Drakenn]

Lykaon, on 06 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Honestly it's not the Raven it's ECM + Streaks.

The 3L Raven is a symptom not the cause.

Agreed. The commando 2D is just as deadly, in my opinion.

[Royalewithcheese]

Let's see if this is still true in a couple of weeks post- state rewind I.

[Caladan Nix]

I have to say, it's only slightly better with state rewind.

The Hitboxes still need work, I know the sort of firepower I put against a Raven (almost any model) should be doing a lot more than turning armor yellow. Especially when the same firepower insta-kills Spiders, Commandos, and melts the armor of Jenners or Cicadas if not outright kills them too.

[Infinite1]

I agree, it seems more unbalanced compare to the other light mechs; however, after owning one, I like it. It sucks if the enemy team has one though.

[Lumunix]

Caladan Nix, on 06 March 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

I have to say, it's only slightly better with state rewind.

The Hitboxes still need work, I know the sort of firepower I put against a Raven (almost any model) should be doing a lot more than turning armor yellow. Especially when the same firepower insta-kills Spiders, Commandos, and melts the armor of Jenners or Cicadas if not outright kills them too.

The hit boxes work as intended on the Raven, they havent changed since closed beta, only now has the "issue" of the Raven having a different silhouette only emerges after ECM has been added. Take a close look at the hit boxes of the raven and you will see that the side torsos and the center torso all converge on the beak, so you know that gut reaction to smack ravens on the beak, yeah your doing them a favor because you are spreading the damage between all three hitzones. My raven runs 38points CT armor, 26 on each side. So effectively I have 90 points of armor you have to go through if all you do is hit the beak. Its like trying to hit the side torso on catapults its difficult, not impossible. The old term of "Know Thy Foe" comes to mind.

[Koshirou]

Drakenn, on 06 March 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Agreed. The commando 2D is just as deadly, in my opinion.

Well, it's easier to kill and generally less heavily armed. But it's often just as annoying.

[Samophlange]

It doesn't matter what mech I pilot, I run away from Ravens. If I can't put a dent in one with a Master level Hunchback or Dragon, there's a problem with the mech.
I'm hollowed out before I can return fire enough times to take one out.
Too slow to turn and lock with streaks in a larger mech.
Ravens are too quick too fast and casue enough lag to not get hit with anything but lasers. (Hopefully fixed)

I'm not the best pilot, but come on.... 35 tons of raven vs. 60 tons of dragon and I can't blast it to bits? With 2 SSRMs, LBX-10 and a Lg. Pulse?!? What the blankety-blank!

[LtPepper]

Mawai, on 06 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Compare the Raven-3L to all other light mechs
- 35 tons
- max speed about 150kph
- ECM (can not be targeted by LRM/SSRM unless ECM is countered)
- 3 lasers and 2 missile hard points
- can fit 2xSSRM2 or 2xSRM6 as desired
- can fit maximum armor for a light mech
- advantageous hit box - (the torso is long and narrow so when facing a target the aim has to be precise to hit it).

The only feature a Raven-3L lacks is jump jets (which can be useful in getting away or being a harder target ... and which are a lot of fun ... but don't make that big a difference)

NO other light mech has all these benefits ... particularly the ECM feature. ECM means that any other mech armed with SSRM can not hit it. In addition, the Raven still has 3 medium lasers or other energy weapons to back up the SSRMs.

In any 1:1 contest of light mechs between equally skilled pilots the Raven-3L will win.

This is NOT balanced.

I absolutely agree with that. So far the Raven 3L has the best of everthing that is available for a light Mech, except the jump jets, as mentioned.

I have played several Commando Variants and especially without ECM I never stood a chance against a Raven 3L, no matter how good or bad the Raven-Pilot was. It was just lock on for him and fire Streaks until I was finished, which usually didnt take long. You can argue that it is intended to be that way and a Commando shouldnt engage a Raven 3L 1on1. Well, I tried to evade it. But that proved to be almost impossible once I was spotted, as it not only has more firepower and armour than my Commando, but is also faster.

The point that i really cant understand is why it can carry a better engine than the other Raven variants (295 compared to 245 on the 2 others) and ECM at the same time. Its speed is the feature that makes it the Nemesis of every other light mech. You cant beat it one on one and u cant run from it if u dont have jump jets.

If I could make only one suggestion, I would say reduce the engine range it can carry and make it as fast as the other Ravens. This would really go a long way to a fairer balance.

[Sedant]

The Raven is simply a heavier platform then the other lights so it has better hard points and can fit more equipment on it. I wouldn't call that imbalanced.

Edited by Sedant, 07 March 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Gevurah]

Just wait till raven's get their quirks. You'll see the same thing happen to it that happened to the cicada 3m - small nerfs while the rest of the cicadas got buffs.


Cicada Variant Quirks

- CDA-2A: Received an additional module slot (this gives it 2 now, like the other variants). Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Torso movement speed increased by 10%. Turning rate increased by 5%.
- CDA-2B: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Arm movement speed increased by 22%. Turning rate increased by 5%.
- CDA-3C: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Turning rate increased by 10%.
- CDA-3M: Turning rate decreased by 5%. Acceleration decreased by 10%.
- CDA-X5: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Turning rate increased by 10%.

Even still, the major issue remains - ECM + streaks, coupled with a very bizarre hitbox on the raven. The only readily duplicated way to kill them is a RT or leg hit. While the inevitable buffs to the 2x/4x will help make other chassis viable, and a slight debuff to the raven will help somewhat, it will still fail to address the two core issues.

[Flapdrol]

Beating a dead horse there Mawai

[DEMAX51]

I completely agree with the original post. I pilot just about everything, but in competitive play I'm predominantly a light pilot. While there will always be a special place in my heart for the Jenner (it's just so much fun!), there is absolutely no reason for me to take any other 'Mech into a competitive match than the 3L.

I do think, however, that a bunch of minor nerfs in conjunction with each other could provide a good solution. Reduce the 3L's torso twist, turning rate, and acceleration, and that alone might take care of it. I don't think drastic changes are necessary, but something does need to be done.

[Mawai]

I also think there is an issue with the Raven-3L hit boxes of some sort.

I was just in a match against a Raven-3L ... in my Trebuchet with 5 arm mounted medium lasers so tracking the mech is much easier. I hit it multiple times with the lasers ... as well as some SRM6s ... the reticle turned red indicating hits. The Raven-3L however did not show much damage ... on the end of match screen, despite all the hits that appeared to occur during the game ... I had a total damage of 73. My aim isn't usually that bad ... spider, commando, jenner ... I don't have much trouble ... but out of about 10 laser shots (about 250 potential damage) and about 4 decent SRM6+Artemis shots (another possible 60 damage) ... I did just 73 (or less since that includes any damage I did to other mechs).

I am wondering if there is something about the shape of the model or the hit boxes that result in reduced effective damage against the mech.

Edited by Mawai, 07 March 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[MuadXDib]

Lykaon, on 06 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Honestly it's not the Raven it's ECM + Streaks.

The 3L Raven is a symptom not the cause.

This is exactly true

[Strig]

Lykaon, on 06 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Honestly it's not the Raven it's ECM + Streaks.

The 3L Raven is a symptom not the cause.

Well, ECM + SSRMs is a factor ... but the Raven-3L chasis actually highlights the problem and is a good mech to test theoretical fixes against.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION 1: To fix the Raven (and ECM) PGI should implement Electronic Warfare (EW) hard points.

EVERY mech (or almost every mech, up for debate) should have one EW hard point ... those deemed appropriate platforms for electronic warfare would have more.

Many would run ECM (in its current form almost everyone would) but some would run TAG, or BAP (or TAG and BAP if they had 2 hps). No one would run NARC as that still sucks.

Take the Raven-3L. In its current form:

• 3 energy
  
• 2 missile
  
• 1 AMS
  
• ECM

The stock load-out (25 damage alpha potential) is:

• 2 medium lasers
  
• 1 SRM6
  
• 1 TAG (EW)
  
• 1 NARC (EW)
  
• 1 ECM (EW)

The TYPICAL player tweaked load-out (again, a 25 damage alpha potential, but with all the possible bells and whistles, including max armor, max engine, DHSs, and non-missing SSRMs with ample ammo OR extra EW perks) looks like this:

• 3 medium lasers
  
• 2 SSRM2s
  
• ECM
  
• 1 AMS or BAP (maybe)

IN the 'corrected' form:</p>

• 2 energy
  
• 1 missile
  
• 1 AMS
  
• 3 electronic warfare (or even 4 ... it is the defacto light Electronic Wwarfare platform)

This reduces the 3L Streak abuse. This reduces the number of medium lasers the 3L can run.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION 2: To fix the Raven (and ECM) PGI should make ECM function as it does in the Battletech rules. You will note that nowhere does ECM say it prevents missile locks. Just that it is designed to interfere with them.

• Guardian ECM:
  
  • 2 crits, 1.5 tons
    
  • Eliminates bonuses from artemis & narc
    
  • removes "shared targeting" for mechs in bubble (if you can see it you can target it, but your teammates don't get to unless they can also see it)
    
  • Jams friendly mech sensors ONLY when they are inside the 180m bubble
    
  • Increases lock-on times when targeting any mech inside the bubble (Note that even the more advanced Angel ECM Suite prevents streak lock-on but still allows them to fire like regular missiles. It say nothing about preventing LRM lock.)
    
  • Counters BAP bonuses (? not sure how this should work)
    
  • From SARNA: ECM Suite
    
    • Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.
      
    • Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons.
      
    • A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.
      
    • The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

There are many other ideas floating around out there. I personally think that PGI should implement BOTH of the ones I have listed.

The Raven-3L is unbalanced because it is hands down the best Raven (and while debatable, probably the best light mech). This is due to its ability to max everything and still run with ECM and 2 SSRMs.

ECM is unbalanced for one reason. There is never a reason you would not take it. Every other weapon or item in the game makes you ask, is this worth taking over something else. When you ask that about ECM the answer is always YES. ALWAYS. There are two ways to fix ECM: make it so there is a tradeoff when using it OR allow everyone the option to use it.

Edited by Strig, 08 March 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[IrrelevantFish]

Actually, a fresh JR7-F will beat a fresh RVN-3L one-on-one. Streak damage is spread out, no matter how awesome you are, but a highly skilled pilot can focus the damage from beam weapons on a single location, and the JR7-F has six to the RVN-3L's three.

However, this is in a one-on-one duel and doesn't factor in LRM's or heavier, Streak-equipped mechs nearby. It also doesn't factor in that the Jenner probably isn't fresh when it engages, and will inevitably take heavy damage during the engagement, even if the 3L pilot sucks.

So I add my voice in saying that the 3L is OP.

[Darling_In_The_MeXX]

I post to agree with the title of this forum. i have not the time to read through everything sadly.

[Headlessnewt]

Personally, I think the big problem with the 3L isn't its loadout, it's the top speed.

Speed is life to a Light, and the other Ravens are slow. Put the 3L down where the other Ravens are and it'll cease to be a problem.