128 replies to this topic

[FrostCollar]

Headlessnewt, on 08 March 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Personally, I think the big problem with the 3L isn't its loadout, it's the top speed.

Speed is life to a Light, and the other Ravens are slow. Put the 3L down where the other Ravens are and it'll cease to be a problem.

You shouldn't stop there. I think it's the other Ravens that need the larger engine cap. The Raven 2X is a retrofitted combat Raven, and the 4X is a purpose-designed combat Raven. The 3L is the EWAR one. So why do the 2X and 4X have the same armor limits and smaller engines?

[Headlessnewt]

FrostCollar, on 08 March 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

You shouldn't stop there. I think it's the other Ravens that need the larger engine cap. The Raven 2X is a retrofitted combat Raven, and the 4X is a purpose-designed combat Raven. The 3L is the EWAR one. So why do the 2X and 4X have the same armor limits and smaller engines?

Well, armor limits are the same because armor is based on tonnage not variant, and that shouldn't change.

I have no idea why they have smaller engines, that + ECM makes them so incredibly worse than the 3L.

[Swiffllama]

For those suggesting that a speed change will fix the 3L, you are wrong. I run mine with a stock engine, 98kph top speed and still own. The problem is not the speed its the way that ECM is currently configured to work. I am able to engage any other light mech while not having to worry about his missile loaded buddies down the street. And 98kph is still fast enough to run circles around heavy and assaults while outrunning most mediums. Add that to the hit box issue and a speed nerf is not going to change anything.

[Xandralkus]

The 3L is imbalanced because it carries ECM - which basically un-does the actions of players in a completely unstoppable manner. That action, in and of itself, is supremely OP.

All of the 3L's balance issues would (probably?) go away if ECM were not allowed on it. Is the 3L imbalanced in ways that do not involve ECM?

[Swiffllama]

Xandralkus,

As discussed earlier in this post, the Raven has a peculiar hit box layout. So when targeting the front of the Raven damage has a tendency to spread out. I wouldn't necessarily call it a "balance" issue so much as a knowledge issue.

As for removal of the ECM. I personally think you either remove it from the game all together or fix it. As to what that "fix" is, there is at least 10 other threads discussing that. But I don't think you can exclude it from just the 3L. If you do, all of the light mech lovers like me will just move over to the Commando. Not quite as good but it has it's own set of advantages, like 3 ssrm 2s instead of 2.

Keep in mind I love my 3L so maybe my opinions can't really be considered objective....

[Voyager I]

IrrelevantFish, on 08 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually, a fresh JR7-F will beat a fresh RVN-3L one-on-one. Streak damage is spread out, no matter how awesome you are, but a highly skilled pilot can focus the damage from beam weapons on a single location, and the JR7-F has six to the RVN-3L's three.

This works if the Jenner pilot is aimbotting. In a fight between humans, Streaks are going to win out over an extra three lasers, especially since six mediums will overheat a Jenner after a few volleys. The Jenner is going to have 2-3 extra heat sinks at best. In a prolonged duel, which a 1v1 between light mechs will almost inevitably turn into, that's not nearly enough to feed twice as many lasers.

Of course, the real problem is the fact that Streaks decide light fights. Before ECM, the Jenner D was the Anointed King of Light Mechs because it was the best Streak platform. All ECM did was pass the crown and exacerbate the problem by making it so that larger Streak platforms that could previously hard counter lights were no longer capable of doing so.

Basically Streaks are terrible for the light mech metagame.

[Xandralkus]

The Raven has hitbox issues? I had no idea. I'm only aware of the lagshield issues they have - and their ECM.

Agreed, ECM should be removed from the game until the devs can assign it a function congruent with its two critical slots and two tons. At most, it should be no more valuable than a pair of Medium Lasers.

[Wolf Clearwater]

Jenners are way nastier than ravens. Same tonnage, smaller size, more weapon hardpoints. In fact everyone was complaining about how OP jenners were compared to the other lights just before ECM release. The only reason ppl are angry about ravens is the 3L and ECM-SSRM. PGI said they are "looking into the ECM/SSRM issue" if that changes jenners will be back to being the "problem child" I have no doubt.

[DeathsScythe]

I have been waiting 10 plus years for a new mechwarrior game and am sad to see it is over ran with OP light mechs. Anyone saying that they are not are obviously trying to protect them. I shot a raven in the leg with two PPCs and it pretty much only did half damage to that leg. I'm sorry but in the old game that leg would be GONE. Mechwarrior to me was big mechs having epic battles turning their torsos to consume the incoming fire not a heavy mech getting ***** by 1 or two light mechs. Its not suppose to be a fast pace game anyhow. I think if they at least nerf the leg armor this issue would be resolved. I seriously hope this issue gets fixed because if not I believe this will be a sad fate for Mechwarrior.

Edited by ThadiusTheThird, 09 March 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[FrostCollar]

ThadiusTheThird, on 09 March 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I have been waiting 10 plus years for a new mechwarrior game and am sad to see it is over ran with OP light mechs. Anyone saying that they are not are obviously trying to protect them. I shot a raven in the leg with two PPCs and it pretty much only did half damage to that leg.

Armor's been doubled to increase the length of combat. Remember, mechs exist that can carry six PPCs. If you're asking for the ability for two of them to leg an enemy mech, you're barking up the wrong tree.

ThadiusTheThird, on 09 March 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I'm sorry but in the old game that leg would be GONE. Mechwarrior to me was big mechs having epic battles turning their torsos to consume the incoming fire not a heavy mech getting ***** by 1 or two light mechs. Its not suppose to be a fast pace game anyhow. I think if they at least nerf the leg armor this issue would be resolved. I seriously hope this issue gets fixed because if not I believe this will be a sad fate for Mechwarrior.

I'm sure your heart's in the right place, but you seem to be advocating for a game where light mechs are useless. That won't happen and that's a good thing.

[DeathsScythe]

FrostCollar, on 09 March 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Armor's been doubled to increase the length of combat. Remember, mechs exist that can carry six PPCs. If you're asking for the ability for two of them to leg an enemy mech, you're barking up the wrong tree.

I'm sure your heart's in the right place, but you seem to be advocating for a game where light mechs are useless. That won't happen and that's a good thing.

I'm not saying make them useless I'm just saying make them equal. As of now they are far more superior than any other class mech. I've played both the light mechs and the heavy mechs and I do far better in light mechs myself. That is not how it is suppose to be there is a clear unbalance and it needs to be addressed. I have noticed every match i get in the team with the light mech majority wins. If that's not unbalance I don't know what is.

[HarmAssassin]

I suggested in another thread that the game could be improved by simply removing all mechs 35 tons or lighter from the game. I for one, am tired of light mechs that can't be damaged (except with Streaks)... oh... wait.... they also get ECMs which make those streaks worthless.

I was just in a match in which I was the lightest mech on my team (50 tons) - I ran into a pack of 4 Raven 3L's and died before I could type into chat "pack of ravens".

First off... why did one team drop with 4 Ravens when the other team didn't have even a single light mech????
Second, the forums are FULL of threads complaining that light mechs have been darn near indistructable since open beta began. Yes, some fixes have been made, but it is a long way to being remedied.

Earlier tonight my unhurt Stalker (2 LRM 15 Artemis, 4 Med Laser, and the fasted engine that fits into it) encountered a spider with jump jets. We were each the last of our team. The spider was already hurt, at approximately 85% health. I can't count how many times I hit that thing with all four medium lasers, and held them on target for most of their duration (not easy to do in a mech that can't torso twist fast enough to stay on target against a light mech) - and he killed me.

Even if each volley only did half damage (I say I did more), that spider should have died 10 times over during that fight. I got hit indicators, saw his paperdoll light up indicating hits, and timed my shots to when he was traveling directly towards or away from me... and he somehow killed a fully repaired stalker with his hurt spider that only had 1 weapon?????

This is broken, it has been broken since open beta started, dozens of people have indicated that this is broken... enough is enough. Do something about it already.

Either get this fixed, or remove every light mech from the game.

The other day, I bought a Raven 3L. I plan to play it a lot. Maybe when the developers see that every match is dropping with 16 Raven 3L's, they'll finally get the message that this c r a p needs to be fixed.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 09 March 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[DeathsScythe]

HarmAssassin, on 09 March 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

This is broken, it has been broken since open beta started, dozens of people have indicated that this is broken... enough is enough. Do something about it already.

I could not agree more.

[Voyager I]

Light mechs have actually been getting shot and dying pretty reliably when they get into fights with larger mechs when they are equipped with weapons capable of tracking them. Arm-mounted lasers, wide torso twist ranges, and mediums that are fast enough to mitigate the light mech's speed advantages are all basically beyond the ability of lights to 1v1 assuming a relatively even match between the pilots. The netcode is still a good deal short of perfect, but it's miles better than it used to be and lights are perfectly capable of dying.

With that in mind, A fast-mover is basically the worst thing that could ever happen to a Stalker because you have a terrible, terrible ability to track lateral movement. Given that you were also an LRM boat resorting to using your backup weapons for self defense, you probably should lose that fight most of the time. Some light mechs are hunter-killers, and ganking unprotected fire-support platforms is one of their jobs on the battlefield.


There are basically two problems with light mechs right now, at least as far as they interact with each other. The first is Streaks, and the fact that Streaks are the dominant deciding factor in fights between light mechs. This mean light mechs are rated first and foremost on their ability to kill each other with streaks, such that all but a handful of chassis have basically no hope of being competitive. The second is that all light mechs are treated as being the same when a 10-ton difference is an enormous gap on their scale The Commando, for example, is actually really good for its tonnage. The only problem with it is that "for its tonnage" is a meaningless statement in the current game environment and it's trying to compete with mechs that have similar hardpoint layouts and a 60% size advantage.

If Streaks weren't what they were, the Raven and the Jenner would present an interesting tradeoff; the Jenner has more raw combat power, but the Raven is still a respectable combatant while bringing some very potent utility to the team. Unfortunately, the current ECM/Streak interaction means that the Raven brings all that utility while also beating every other light mech in head-to-head combat.

Edited by Voyager I, 09 March 2013 - 08:45 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I suggested in another thread that the game could be improved by simply removing all mechs 35 tons or lighter from the game

Why? There is no reason Commandos and Spiders cant be competitive. They just need to go faster than Ravens. The whole problem is that the Raven-3L can go 151kph. Raven-3Ls are NOT supposed to be fast light mechs... their stock speed is 97kph.

Max engine for a Raven-3L should be 260

[jay35]

I don't find ECM to be a problem, nor loadouts. I find the Raven 3L to be a problem mostly due to its hitboxes/armor. This issue is equally problematic on the other Raven variants, however when it is most noticeable on the 3L due to ECM preventing missile lock (except when its ECM is countered), and lock-on missiles are the easiest way to hit a Light mech.

ECM gets a bad rap but it is the Raven chassis itself that is the real source of the problem. It takes (or appears to take) way more punishment than it should. Either shots aren't registering their full damage on it, or it has way more armor than perhaps it should.

If the Raven had its wings clipped a little so that it wasn't quite so absurdly durable, people would realize that ECM and loadouts aren't really the problem and in fact play an important role in broadening the tactical gameplay options available to players and teams alike.

Edited by jay35, 09 March 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[Khobai]

As long as Commandos and Spiders go same speed or slower than Ravens, then Ravens are going to have an advantage in light vs light combat... theyve got 5-10 extra tons and the same speed.

Commandos and Spiders should be faster than Ravens. Period.

Plus the whole role of Ravens is electronic warfare... so they dont need speed for that. They should go 130kph tops.

Edited by Khobai, 09 March 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[HarmAssassin]

I understand that Stalkers aren't designed for dogfights, but with 4 medium lasers firing together (doing 20pts of damage per volley), and at least 5 times as much armor - I should have been blowing chunks off that little spider with every hit. No single hit location on that spider should have survived more than just a couple of hits. Yes, I know it's moving and the damage of lasers is spread over time - but still...

At most that spider had 200 external armor, and as I stated it was already significantly hurt. Even using my backup weapons, I have four times the firepower that it had, and several times as much armor. By positioning my back to walls, torso twisting, and changing speed and direction, I was able to keep that thing in front of me whenever it fired. It didn't get me by taking out by back armor.

That spider should have been clearly overmatched. I can understand a fluke chance... but this type of thing is occurring VERY often in matches, and there have been dozens if not hundreds of complaints of this in the forums.

[Voyager I]

jay35, on 09 March 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

I don't find ECM to be a problem, nor loadouts. I find the Raven 3L to be a problem mostly due to its hitboxes/armor. This issue is equally problematic on the other Raven variants, however when it is most noticeable on the 3L due to ECM preventing missile lock (except when its ECM is countered), and lock-on missiles are the easiest way to hit a Light mech.

ECM gets a bad rap but it is the Raven chassis itself that is the real source of the problem. It takes (or appears to take) way more punishment than it should. Either shots aren't registering their full damage on it, or it has way more armor than perhaps it should.

If the Raven had its wings clipped a little so that it wasn't quite so absurdly durable, people would realize that ECM and loadouts aren't really the problem and in fact play an important role in broadening the tactical gameplay options available to players and teams alike.

ECM and loadouts are absolutely the problem, at least as far as the light mech metagame is concerned. The primary reason you would bring a light mech to a match is because you want to use their mobility to scout and control map objectives. Their most likely opposition in this duty will be enemy light mechs; thus, the first design priority for a light mech build is their ability to fight other lights away from support from either team. If they can't handle themselves away from the blob, you can contribute more with a heavier chassis. Since the outcome of a fight between two light mechs will typically be determined by which one is the better Streak platform, it means the Raven 3L is the most effective light mech in the game, followed by the Commando 2D, and nothing else is even capable of being used in a serious environment because they cannot contest those two mechs in anything approaching a fair engagement and are thus incapable of having any presence on the map away from the main force of their team.

HarmAssassin, on 09 March 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

I understand that Stalkers aren't designed for dogfights, but with 4 medium lasers firing together (doing 20pts of damage per volley), and at least 5 times as much armor - I should have been blowing chunks off that little spider with every hit. No single hit location on that spider should have survived more than just a couple of hits. Yes, I know it's moving and the damage of lasers is spread over time - but still...

At most that spider had 200 external armor, and as I stated it was already significantly hurt. Even using my backup weapons, I have four times the firepower that it had, and several times as much armor. By positioning my back to walls, torso twisting, and changing speed and direction, I was able to keep that thing in front of me whenever it fired. It didn't get me by taking out by back armor.

That spider should have been clearly overmatched. I can understand a fluke chance... but this type of thing is occurring VERY often in matches, and there have been dozens if not hundreds of complaints of this in the forums.

If you were consistently hitting the Spider, four medium lasers would have taken him apart fairly quickly. From the fact that you did not kill him, we can surmise that you were not. This may in part be the netcode, but also please keep in mind that the mech you were in is perhaps the worst possible platform you could have been fighting him with; you are slow, have a very narrow torso twist radius, and have arms incapable of lateral traversal. I don't think there's anything in the game less suited to putting damage on a light. Also keep in mind that grazing a target for any amount of damage will trigger all the damage indicators, even if the hit was essentially superficial.

[DeathsScythe]

Voyager I, on 09 March 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

ECM and loadouts are absolutely the problem, at least as far as the light mech metagame is concerned. The primary reason you would bring a light mech to a match is because you want to use their mobility to scout and control map objectives. Their most likely opposition in this duty will be enemy light mechs; thus, the first design priority for a light mech build is their ability to fight other lights away from support from either team. If they can't handle themselves away from the blob, you can contribute more with a heavier chassis. Since the outcome of a fight between two light mechs will typically be determined by which one is the better Streak platform, it means the Raven 3L is the most effective light mech in the game, followed by the Commando 2D, and nothing else is even capable of being used in a serious environment because they cannot contest those two mechs in anything approaching a fair engagement and are thus incapable of having any presence on the map away from the main force of their team.



If you were consistently hitting the Spider, four medium lasers would have taken him apart fairly quickly. From the fact that you did not kill him, we can surmise that you were not. This may in part be the netcode, but also please keep in mind that the mech you were in is perhaps the worst possible platform you could have been fighting him with; you are slow, have a very narrow torso twist radius, and have arms incapable of lateral traversal. I don't think there's anything in the game less suited to putting damage on a light. Also keep in mind that grazing a target for any amount of damage will trigger all the damage indicators, even if the hit was essentially superficial.

Mechs should be balanced this is called UNbalance when one mech can clearly obliterate another mech. I could understand it he was the Cat-A1 with nothing but LRMs but stalkers do have quite a few back up weapons. Light mechs already have the role of scouting and electronic warfare they should not have the ability to win a 1 on 1 fight hands down with an assault or heavy mech. The mechwarrior I use to know light mechs feared heavy mechs not heavier mechs running in fear. Its for good cause too a light mech who was skilled would avoid heavy mechs and learn to help his team fight them. In this game when I drive a light mech I can pretty much run in and kill whatever mech I want, light mechs being my only competition.

Edited by ThadiusTheThird, 10 March 2013 - 07:46 AM.