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Ecm Acts Like Aecm


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#1 Armored Yokai

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:19 PM

AECM
The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite COMPLETELY blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
ECM
the use of an ECM suite nullifies the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.

MWO ECM functions the same way as Angel ECM
which does not comeout 2 years from now since it comes shortly after the battle of luthien

ecm should only nullify (reduce) targeting making it very hard to get a lockon... not Block it
aecm blocks Everything

Edited by Cementblade, 08 March 2013 - 04:20 PM.


#2 ForgedByFire

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:27 PM

I see the difference there
honestly i think ecm should work like TT ecm not the angel ecm suite.

#3 Armored Yokai

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:31 PM

Its nice to know someone agrees!

#4 Kinilan

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:36 PM

If you want tabletop rules go play tabletop.

#5 Kartr

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:40 PM

Wrong MWO acts like neither.


ECM Suite(from TW pp. 134):
Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers.

Active Probes (BAP): Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed, however.

Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they loose the Cluster Hits Table bonus. In other words we should still be able to lock LRMs when someone has ECM but the lock on speed and increase in individual missile hits would go away and it'd be as if we weren't Artemis equipped

Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to hom in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM "bubble." The Narc launcher itself [...] is not affected by ECM. If you Narc a guy and he is protected by ECM your missile boat can still lock and fire like normal, he just doesn't get the bonus the Narc normally gives.

Angel ECM Suite (TO pp. 279):
The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the [...](Jihad era equipment not applicable here)[...] and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster tables as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model. Your Streak SRM2s now fire like regular SRM2s

MWO ECM from here:

David Bradley said:

When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:

Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.


The Beagle Active Probe is of no use in extending this range.


It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.


Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.


Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.



When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:

You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.


You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.


Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.


You cannot achieve any missile locks.


Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.


Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.




Shorter detection range is not in the real rules and is THE problem especially since it is being applied to every 'Mech friendly to the ECM unit that are within range. Because units can't be detected until they are within 200m a whole team can "cloak" right up to or past their enemy. Combine that not being able to share targeting data (which only applies to C3 systems) and the fact friendly 'Mechs in enemy ECM are invisible, means that a team with ECM can sneak up on and destroy enemy 'Mechs without their team even knowing they are in danger much less assist.

The fact that it blocks all missile locks and not just Streak is another problem since in TT you target enemy 'Mechs and not hexes (unless you're using special munitions) and ECM doesn't stop that. In MWO targeting enemy 'Mechs with LRMs is represented by the locks we get and if we can't get them because of ECM then ECM is suddenly far far more powerful than it is in TT and more powerful than it was ever intended to be.

My point is that ECM isn't like Angel ECM at all, it is its own breed of super, abominably powerful ECM that is not representative of any ECM that exists in BattleTech.

Edited by Kartr, 08 March 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#6 Pater Mors

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:40 PM

Another ECM thread... :P

#7 Livewyr

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:42 PM

You forget the Null Signature System..

View PostPater Mors, on 08 March 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Another ECM thread... :P


Almost like there's a problem with it or something...

#8 Armored Yokai

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:50 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 08 March 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

You forget the Null Signature System..



Almost like there's a problem with it or something...

OHOHOH there it my friend there is

AECM blocks everything
ECM doesn't
MWO ECM blocks everything

#9 Kousagi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

View PostKartr, on 08 March 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:


~Lots of text thats been beaten to death~



If you knew ALL of the differences from MWO and TT you would notice your argument is moot. Also, If you want to go through ALL of the rule books for every single little rule and lore standpoint for every single system that is featured in MWO, you would notice quite a few things are changed....

Kinda like how LRM's lock on in the first place, since TT DO NOT lock on in the sense you are thinking of. LRM's are NOT a Seeker type guidance system, They are commonly refereed to as a Semi-guided missile in lore as well. So naturally Since TT LRM's have a Self contained guidance system, ECM does not do anything to them, but MWO LRM's how ever do not have a Self contained guidance system. Easy way to display this is, MWO LRM's lose trace of the target when the Mech loses track of the target, which means the Mech itself is what is guiding the missile, which means a ECM would be able to interfere with the communication from the mech to the LRM. Now, this is from a Lore stand point.

With that said however, Please do shut up... TT is a base line for balance. now all of it translates well in to real time combat, which is why some things get changed. Get over it. PGI is balancing the game for playability and fun. Which is the correct way to go about it, not strict adherence to the TT game rules.

#10 Livewyr

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:03 PM

View PostKousagi, on 08 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:


<some stuff about TT>

With that said however, Please do shut up... TT is a base line for balance. now all of it translates well in to real time combat, which is why some things get changed. Get over it. PGI is balancing the game for playability and fun. Which is the correct way to go about it, not strict adherence to the TT game rules.


Interesting logic you have there...

So.. if PGI decided to add a magnetic field generator that stopped ballistic rounds.. and a fog generator that stopped lasers.. those would be cool?

Ooh ooh better.. let's make the gauss rifle 4 tons and 3 crit slots...I could make some lame argument why that's fine.. so it's fine!


Screw TT...

(I don't believe in strict adherence in TT where it isn't applicable- however I do believe in balance.. and when people are asking that MM make sure the same amount of ECMs are on each side.. the item isn't balanced..)

#11 Kousagi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:13 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 08 March 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:


Interesting logic you have there...

So.. if PGI decided to add a magnetic field generator that stopped ballistic rounds.. and a fog generator that stopped lasers.. those would be cool?

Ooh ooh better.. let's make the gauss rifle 4 tons and 3 crit slots...I could make some lame argument why that's fine.. so it's fine!


Screw TT...

(I don't believe in strict adherence in TT where it isn't applicable- however I do believe in balance.. and when people are asking that MM make sure the same amount of ECMs are on each side.. the item isn't balanced..)


So, another "ECM is OP" comment... I honestly don't get why everyone is so up in arms about it. I've played my LRM boat Quite a bit. Not much of a problem for me... Then again, maybe I'm one of the few people that have a brain and use Tag/PPC's to counter it... But hey, who cares about counters, Lets just make this LRM warrior online where every brain dead monkey can tap 1 button with zero thought and pwn everything that walks.... Then again, LRM's are already boarder line doing this, At least ECM stops the truly brain dead.

Edited by Kousagi, 08 March 2013 - 05:17 PM.


#12 Psikez

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostKousagi, on 08 March 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:


So, another "ECM is OP" comment... I honestly don't get why everyone is so up in arms about it. I've played my LRM boat Quite a bit. Not much of a problem for me... Then again, maybe I'm one of the few people that have a brain and use Tag/PPC's to counter it... But hey, who cares about counters, Lets just make this LRM warrior online where every brain dead monkey can tap 1 button with zero thought and pwn everything that walks.... Then again, LRM's are already boarder line doing this already, At least ECM stops the truly brain dead.


but RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE etc

#13 Livewyr

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostKousagi, on 08 March 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:


So, another "ECM is OP" comment... I honestly don't get why everyone is so up in arms about it. I've played my LRM boat Quite a bit. Not much of a problem for me... Then again, maybe I'm one of the few people that have a brain and use Tag/PPC's to counter it... But hey, who cares about counters, Lets just make this LRM warrior online where every brain dead monkey can tap 1 button with zero thought and pwn everything that walks.... Then again, LRM's are already boarder line doing this, At least ECM stops the truly brain dead.


Or you can fix both of them

I'm reallllly tired of having to explain this to people.

What happens if one team has 4 LRM Boats and the other team has 4 ECMs?
What happens if one team has 4 LRM boats and 4 ECMs?

-----------------
Now.. if you fix ECM so it isn't some frankenmonster electronic.. and you fix missiles so they're not the apex predator on the battlefield.. then you don't how to worry about whether your team has enough ECM or missiles...
---------------------
Also.. I'm glad you have the skill to use that tag and train it on that target.. turns out so do I. It just boils my blood that I have to do that just to USE missiles while the guy I'm targeting might as well have forgotten he mounted ECM..

You have to give him your full attention..and he couldn't care less whether you exist.. does that NOT make you feel just a little bit like a chump to his 1.5 ton passive (always active) piece of equipment?

Edited by Livewyr, 08 March 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#14 Vermaxx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:28 PM

ECM has too many features for its size and weight.

It incorporates certain abilities of the Null Signature (stealth armor), and the Angel, and even further gains abilities it never had in tabletop.

Few people would have a leg to stand on if ECM didn't completely hide a mech from sensors until it was right on top of you, didn't prevent the use of LRM/SSRM in some kind of dumbfire mode, and didn't make mechs unable to be targeted...but I don't know how they would actually balance what it DOES DO, since what it DOES DO is largely screw up active probes (which very few people use), and shut down C3 (which we will probably never have).

Obviously, ECM has got to gain some non canon abilities to work in a video game. I don't think they've got it right yet, considering how major a game changer ECM can be and how bad things go for the team with less.

I think, at the very least, we should be able to "use" LRM and SSRM on ECMd targets, even if the missiles have to dumbfire. Yes PGI, figure out a way to dumbfire LRM with a semblance of accuracy. We should also be able to 'target' enemy mechs for the purposes of determining their unit ID, even if we cannot lock on or see their weapons.

ECMs main overpowered traits, in my opinion, are the inability to counter light mechs with SSRM while they swarm YOU, and the inability to coordinate who people need to shoot. It's hard to get people on the same page without comms even when you have a letter above the bad guy's head. It's almost impossible when no one can target the same mech and there are three or four shark-circling.

#15 Vassago Rain

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:30 PM

This is MWO.

Things are different here. We also don't have min ranges on all caliber 2 and 5 autocannons, or ways you can blow your own PPCs up. Should we add those, too? What about indirect LRM fire? Sounds awesome, shooting them straight into the enemy base right at the start, and there being nothing to do about it,

I think we need some combined arms. About 10 aerotech fighters ruining every single mech on the field sounds like a very good gameplay element, that we totally need to incorporate for that extra battletech feel.

Oh, and when your armor fails, every hit to a component should automatically remove it.

#16 Vermaxx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:32 PM

Making ECM shut down ALL STREAKS WITHIN RANGE (friend and foe) would go a long way toward 'balancing' the unit, since it could no longer stack with how good streaks are. For the record, I don't think streaks are really overpowered, though I do agree they shouldn't be able to fire and hit people behind you no matter how recently the dude ran behind you.

View PostVassago Rain, on 08 March 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Oh, and when your armor fails, every hit to a component should automatically remove it.

That needs to be in. This mg-crit-bonus and items-have-hitpoints garbage is evidence as to why. Items get hit, they stop working. Fights get a little shorter. Internals and item HP should not be a second level of armor, but it is in MWO.

#17 Kousagi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 08 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:


Or you can fix both of them

I'm reallllly tired of having to explain this to people.

What happens if one team has 4 LRM Boats and the other team has 4 ECMs?
What happens if one team has 4 LRM boats and 4 ECMs?

-----------------
Now.. if you fix ECM so it isn't some frankenmonster electronic.. and you fix missiles so they're not the apex predator on the battlefield.. then you don't how to worry about whether your team has enough ECM or missiles...
---------------------
Also.. I'm glad you have the skill to use that tag and train it on that target.. turns out so do I. It just boils my blood that I have to do that just to USE missiles while the guy I'm targeting might as well have forgotten he mounted ECM..

You have to give him your full attention..and he couldn't care less whether you exist.. does that NOT make you feel just a little bit like a chump to his 1.5 ton passive (always active) piece of equipment?


Sure, nerf Missiles to the ground, they then become the most worthless system on the battlefield due to the way they work. They would have to lower the damage but up their travel time to near what a PPC is currently to make them viable. Streaks how ever, just need to be taken out, or nerfed to the ground. Then any only then could i see ECM not hurting Missiles.

Chump for using Tag? Not at all. I don't mind having to Aim some. With LRM's I feel more like a god on the battle field. The enemy team does not poke their head out of cover unless I allow them to. If they dare to come out, I teach them how much of a fool they are. LRM's are the best zone denial weapon there currently is, since everyone fears it for good reason. Also, if ya play close/mid range support, which is the best way to use LRM's, then they are utter beasts. Sit just behind the front line at 200-400m's and things just shred when you shoot at them. Makes your Atlas buddys very happy.

Edited by Kousagi, 08 March 2013 - 05:36 PM.


#18 Vermaxx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:44 PM

Streaks dont need a nerf. They just shouldn't fire behind you, shouldn't work within ECM (at all, for anyone), and maybe the cooldown needs upping.

Streaks kill people. So do SRM6, but they do it faster. No one complains about those except on a 6xCat. I don't want to hear about how streaks are BS because they require no skill. I would argue the same thing about LRM - all you need to do (especially with how close you like to stand) is wave your TAG around and press fire when locked. Yeah, it's a little more work than streaks, but you're generally behind someone else or outside "immediately getting shot back range" like a streak user is in.

#19 Ghogiel

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 08 March 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:


So.. if PGI decided to add a magnetic field generator that stopped ballistic rounds.. and a fog generator that stopped lasers.. those would be cool?


They could add them to the levels as glowing power ups you could collect.

#20 Team Leader

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 08 March 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:


Interesting logic you have there...

So.. if PGI decided to add a magnetic field generator that stopped ballistic rounds.. and a fog generator that stopped lasers.. those would be cool?

Ooh ooh better.. let's make the gauss rifle 4 tons and 3 crit slots...I could make some lame argument why that's fine.. so it's fine!


Screw TT...

(I don't believe in strict adherence in TT where it isn't applicable- however I do believe in balance.. and when people are asking that MM make sure the same amount of ECMs are on each side.. the item isn't balanced..)

I strongly agree with this. If they're not gonna do their job to balance the game and fix ECM, they need to put stuff like this in so at least there's some twisted demon semblance of balance that we can work with.





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