174 replies to this topic

[Balsover]

I think you should have to lock onto your own targets in order to use LRM, none of this shared targeting nonsense.

Unless your team mate is using Tag or NARC, that would be the point of them.

[Praehotec8]

malibu43, on 06 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

So what does that mean? My experience was that their effectiveness seemed to bounce between OP and useless.

This has been about my experience with LRMs as a PUG player, although I hesitate to call them really OP. They're really either very useful or everyone uses cover well, or ECM lights harrass you all game, making them worthless.

I have been kiled twice by LRMs in the entirety of my playing (> 1000 drops). Have I been hurt by them? Sure. Totally killed? Only if I don't respect that I was under fire and take action to lose lock before taking multiple volleys. For some reason I have the impression that people think LRMs shouldn't be able to get kills. Why? They are still weapons. Even as a support weapon it needs to be dangerous enough to effect the gameplay, and that means that if you ignore them then, yes, they will kill you. No, they don't take tons and tons of skill, but to use them well, they take as much as it takes to run up to someone at 200m and start blasting with any other weapons. It's not like brawling is a high skill tactic.

As an aside, I would be fine if indirect targetting was removed, and I had to visualize targets myself, as for optimum LRM use that's generally what I have to do anyway. The best time to use LRMs is NOT the 800-1000m that forum posters seem to think, but really 200-500m where you can see the target and they don't have as long to hide/break lock. If indirect firing were removed, I would love to see C3 slave/master modules available though, as they exist in the lore.

[Fut]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 06 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I'm not terribly fond of LRMs, and not just because I don't use them. I do, and they're awesome. The problem is that they are not awesome for the person being struck. Rather than being something avoidable, LRMs enjoy presence from anywhere in the battlefield.

They're intended to break camps and keep people moving, like a form of mech mounted artillery. The problem is that they are basically streaks that can hit from 1km away.

How many kills have you made using LRMs at max range, without the assistance of a spotter?
By that I mean, somebody who's willing to hold LOS and an R-Lock on your target for the entire duration of your missiles' flight.

How many kills have you made using LRMs at max range, with the assistance of a spotter?

My guess is going to be that both numbers are going to be very very low.
In all my time playing with an HBK-4J, I've only made 1 kill at extreme range - and I was completely shocked when it happened. Mainly because most people are smart enough to seek cover when they see Betty flashing warnings up on the screen for an extended period of time.

AC, on 06 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Making them LOS would create a challenge for the LRM boats, and utilizing narc/tag for non-LOS use would give scouts a better definted purpose.

LRMs aren't very effective when shot in-directly without a TAG.
Most people who are fans of LRMs already use them as LOS+Artemis+TAG.

Firing off of somebody elses R-Lock is risky, especially if you're out at 1km range. 9 times out of 10 the person will change their lock and your missiles will hit absolutely nothing, or your target will stray out past the max range and your missiles will do absolutely nothing.

I don't think that these weapons need any more nerfs done to them.
Especially when you consider the range of them vs the range of some Ballistic Weapons in game (as somebody has tried to point out already).
Sure, you can get a lock on somebody at 1000m, fire your missiles off and hold your lock - but that person can turn around, fire their ACs at you - land the hit, and seek cover before your missiles reach them.

When you look at the weapons like that, doesn't it seem like Ballistics have the upper hand already?

Praehotec8, on 06 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

I have been kiled twice by LRMs in the entirety of my playing (> 1000 drops). Have I been hurt by them? Sure. Totally killed? Only if I don't respect that I was under fire and take action to lose lock before taking multiple volleys. For some reason I have the impression that people think LRMs shouldn't be able to get kills. Why? They are still weapons. Even as a support weapon it needs to be dangerous enough to effect the gameplay, and that means that if you ignore them then, yes, they will kill you. No, they don't take tons and tons of skill, but to use them well, they take as much as it takes to run up to someone at 200m and start blasting with any other weapons. It's not like brawling is a high skill tactic.

Nothing but the truth. Well said.

Edited by Fut, 06 March 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I still say people who think LRM's are overpowered, go play one and look at your hit%.

[Tyrolus Lucien]

Well, except for the fact that you have to aim ballistic weapons, and lrms just fire at the red square, I'd agree with you, Fut. Unfortunately that's not the case however. I think we're approximately 2 nerfs to ecm away from returning to lrmboatonline. It wasn't fun the first time, and it won't be fun in any future incarnations. The sky really DOES seem to be falling since the artemis revamp. 85 ton mech losing a torso from the front in the first volley of lrms...good times....good times indeed.

[AnarchyBurger]

I still have yet to understand how some people just cannot deal with LRMs. The ONLY time i've had issue with them is 50/50 ECM light (raven), missle boat teams. But teamwork is OP regardless of what you carry so *shrug*

But back to LRMs. You DODGE! Getting cover eventually breaks lock. Lock broken LRMs dont continue to track you. Use COVER! I've seen way to many games recently with people who either dont understand LRMs or just think they should be immune. I'm not even that good of a pilot, so if I can negate roughly 50-70% of LRM damage you can too.

[Yankee77]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

I think with the new stat tracking it will become very evident that LRM's are not the overpowered beast some people want to think.

They are just like every other weapon when used again players who do not understand the mechanics of the game.

If you stand out in the open, whether it's LRM's or Gauss Rifles you are going to get ripped apart.

Just be happy you get 3 or 4 warnings when LRM's are coming which give you a chance to find ECM or cover.

Indeed. They are great weapons against anyone who make themselves a good target for LRMs.

Against anyone else, they're no worse than other weapons, and if you've got ECM on top they're basically useless unless the launcher is tagging you, in which case that mech could have been nailing you with sniper weapons in the first place (against which you woudn't get any warning OR the option to duck behind cover).

So yeah, LRMs don't need a nerf. They only rip apart people who are careless and who stay out of cover. That's not the weapon's fault, and they should not be nerfed because of that.

Indeed, if LRMs needed anything it was a buff, as in 8-mans LRMs were practically useless. With the Artemis/PPC/State Rewind changes however, it may just be that LRMs are finally a viable option in 8-mans.

Also, LRMs do _NOT_ need to be boated. I'm doing just fine with my 2xPPC/10-15LRMs C1. In fact, in 8-man boating LRMs is a liability. You'll find find yourself useless most of the time, either due to the enemy taking cover or ECM shutting you down hard. A balanced LRM build is far more efficient (having sniper primary weapons backed up with TAG and LRMs is a good combo).

Thank you.

[Damocles69]

Nerf hill and buildings while your at it. They are op

Also nerf common sense.... WAY OP

[Suki]

LRMs are pretty useless at the distance 800+, course people have plenty of time to get behind some cover or under friendly ECM.
All the people dead at the maximum of LRM range just deserve to die untill they learn to respect it.

Almost all people stopped using AMS
many people are not trying to use at least some cover
all they rely on is ECM

but ECM is pretty useless at the big range vs LRM boat + TAG.

So start using some brain vs LRMs in the game and not via forum.

[Yankee77]

And for the love of god, don't use Training Grounds as proof that LRMs are uber.

I've done plenty of drops yesterday in 8-mans and PUGs, and several training grounds, and the fact that mechs actually MOVE in real drops makes a HUGE difference.

Heck, if anything the artemis change made "rolling" LRM damage even more viable. The spread is tighter, but also far longer, so if you twist your torso as you get hit the damage will be spread across many component. That's not the case in training ground, so mechs eat most of the volley in the CT.

[Yankee77]

Suki, on 06 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

LRMs are pretty useless at the distance 800+, course people have plenty of time to get behind some cover or under friendly ECM.
All the people dead at the maximum of LRM range just deserve to die untill they learn to respect it.

Almost all people stopped using AMS
many people are not trying to use at least some cover
all they rely on is ECM

but ECM is pretty useless at the big range vs LRM boat + TAG.

So start using some brain vs LRMs in the game and not via forum.

This, pretty much.

Personally I find LRMs most useful in my C1 with PPCs+TAG+LRMs. I mostly use them as a direct fire medium range weapon, guided by my TAG while I nail the target with PPCs.

I would do better in a PPC K2, but I keep my LRMs because I like having the indirect fire option for the rare times when it becomes handy

But anyway, LRMs are definitely not OP. NOW, with the most recent changes, they might finally be balanced. But not OP, not by a long shot.

[Baltasar]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 06 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I'm not terribly fond of LRMs, and not just because I don't use them. I do, and they're awesome. The problem is that they are not awesome for the person being struck. Rather than being something avoidable, LRMs enjoy presence from anywhere in the battlefield.

They're intended to break camps and keep people moving, like a form of mech mounted artillery. The problem is that they are basically streaks that can hit from 1km away. I propose that LRMs fired at targets the firer does not have either direct, personal line of sight or tag/narc assistance from allies should not be able to track targets.

They would still function completely as they do now otherwise, but LRMers would not be able to suppress targets they cannot personally see. I'm all for team targeting assistance, but only when the team's electronics are specifically equipped to do so.

As they stand, they deal far too much damage without any reprisal, and detract from the overall strategy and player enjoyment of the game. Make the snipers work for their kills/damage.

If you want full effect of your LRMs you are going to be using LOS on your target anyways. Artemis is line of site...if you are in a PUG a good LRM will carry their own tag (requires LOS). This nice damages to CT or even tracking and getting damaging heads to the mechs are done by LOS and positioning (tip if you are Higher elevation you are more likely to land more lrms onto the head. Go JJ). Dumbfired LRMs take skill too use effectively (no tracking) and one of the main purpose of LRMs are for suppression. It prevents the stupid, lets run full blast head on into the enemy.

Yeah, they are not awesome for the person being struck. Neither is being one shotted by 5ppcs but hey it happens.

As has been stated, LRMs at max range are rather useless. They have a really slow travel time. The only time I fire LRMs at that range is to back down enemies off a hill (you know that warning you get) and then its only one LRM that i'm firing (not for damage). Damage and kills are best done when:

1. You are mid to close range.
2. You have line of site.
3. You're enemies are actively engaged with your team and therefore aren't paying attention.

The only time LRMs are somewhat effective really long range is when you stand out in the wide open spaces and with a good spotter to let you know if your missiles are even hitting.

[Jakob Knight]

No other weapon has as many counters, nor can be rendered completely unusable by a single piece of equipment that doesn't even require any action on the defending unit's part. The fact that a weapon system designed to be used indirectly has to use direct LOS equipment to be usable in the game is contradictory as well.

LRMs -are- support weapons, which means they are heavy weapons, meant to do alot of damage. The problem is that too many people simply look at this game as a FPS game, and don't want to have to think in terms of havigng to deal with threats other than point-and-shoot. The fact that they -cannot- do damage inside 180m, and cannot realistically be used outside of 200m due to ECM, means that they are very restricted weapons.

I'm not going to list (again) the number of disadvantages placed on LRMs in this game, but simply state that LRMs in no way need a nerf. If anything, they need to be improved.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 06 March 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Sheraf]

Damocles69, on 06 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Nerf hill and buildings while your at it. They are op

Also nerf common sense.... WAY OP

Noone should be able to move while LRM is flying at them. Moving is just too overpower:)

This one mech keeps moving to make my LRM hit the ridge,must nerf its movement

Edited by Sheraf, 06 March 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Balsover, on 06 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I think you should have to lock onto your own targets in order to use LRM, none of this shared targeting nonsense.

Unless your team mate is using Tag or NARC, that would be the point of them.

Indirect fire is cannon, with a to hit penalty (for both mechs) C3 removed that.

Getting C3 up and online would go a long way into fixing that issue i.e. you have to spend weight to get the full benefit. But it is what it is.

ECM in all its crappiness makes up for the lack of functional T3 and indirect penalties.

[Jericho917]

shad0w4life, on 06 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Make AMS take down more missles.....I put 2 on a stalker and it seemed to make no difference.

on average a AMS stops 2 LRMs if you are running from the direction of fire it can be more toward it will be less. with 2 you can stop about 4, reducing damage per barrage by a little over 6 points of dam. an if its a atlas with a LRM 20 in a 6 tube slot he fires at least 3 barrages per shot. so..... that's not too bad.

[Xenon Codex]

LRM's are not OP, even with Artemis.

I've been playing for months, and have never used LRM's until last week. I also never use AMS or ECM on any mech. I don't have any problem avoiding LRM's. In fact, LRM boats are fodder for the Flame normally pilot.

Last week I bought some Trebs and decided to stick with the stock loadout (5J + upgrades). A single LRM15+Artemis has been a part of all my Treb builds ever since. It's a great support weapon, but definitely not very reliable amongst talented players and ECM.

Last night after the patch I played 18 PUG games. My LRM damage was 2606 total, 32% hit rate. My short range weapons (ML and SRM6) did 2635 damage, so pretty balanced overall. I made 15 kills and died 7 times.

LRMs are nice when used properly, but not OP.

[Nightcrept]

Saying LRM's are suddenly op is hilarious.

Lrm's have been possibly the most looked at and nerfed, buffed thing in the game.

They are sooo slow and have such a shallow flight path that almost any obstacle can be used to hide behind. Even a enemy mech.

The new patch did nothing to improve the damage, impact points etc. All it did was prevent the pinching exploit.



The only way to die via lrms is to get caught out in the open. Don't fall for the decoy mech and run like a lemming to your death.

[Kylere]

1. LRMS do not need nerfs, nerfed players need to learn the game.

2. Using LRMS is NOT easy unless your opponents are woefully stupid.

3. Any nerf to LRMS has to come with a disabling of Thermal Mode, a max range reduction on all weapons to <1000 meters and a requirement to keep a laser/ppc/ballastic on target for 4-8 seconds. Because any further nerfing of LRMS means I will stop using them.

Basic gameplay tips for fools: AMS works, Buildings work, cover is important and the guy in the Atlas D-DC rushing through the open water is not someone you should follow.

Edited by Kylere, 06 March 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

I've suggested this before and people yelled and screamed:

- Get rid of the integrated C3 system; back fill that functionality into TAG and NARC (now they're powerful)
- Reduce the damage done of missiles to TT values but increase the velocity; all missiles should be 300m/s if not more
- Fix the chance to miss as right now, all missiles hit turning LRM 20s into LRM36s

Now, you've got the same power only its more dependable to use and it adds a definition of tactics as indirect fire now requires teammates with specialized equipment.