174 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

Trauglodyte, on 06 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

I've suggested this before and people yelled and screamed:

- Get rid of the integrated C3 system; back fill that functionality into TAG and NARC (now they're powerful)
- Reduce the damage done of missiles to TT values but increase the velocity; all missiles should be 300m/s if not more
- Fix the chance to miss as right now, all missiles hit turning LRM 20s into LRM36s

Now, you've got the same power only its more dependable to use and it adds a definition of tactics as indirect fire now requires teammates with specialized equipment.

Only if you remove any effect of ECM on aquiring targets for LRMs in any way, make them able to hit targets that were fired upon at launch regardless of how that mech moves, and removed the minimum range damage elimination. These changes are also TT, and implementing the changes you suggest without doing all of the above only results in a gimped weapon system, not a readjustment to 'proper' performance.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 06 March 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Trauglodyte, on 06 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

I've suggested this before and people yelled and screamed:

- Get rid of the integrated C3 system; back fill that functionality into TAG and NARC (now they're powerful)

Tag, NARC, BAP C3 and slaves.

Like it always should have been.

...and nerf the daylights out of ECM.

[Livewyr]

Make Guardian ECM == Guardian ECM

LRM missile damage - .5
LRM missile speed x1.5-2
LRM missile rock, tiny but cumulative.

LRMs, fixed.

[Yokaiko]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Make Guardian ECM == Guardian ECM

LRM missile damage - .5
LRM missile speed x1.5-2
LRM missile rock, tiny but cumulative.

LRMs, fixed.

0.5.

****, you would need ten tons to scratch a correctly build assualt.

[Grizley]

LRMs are the system most obviously out of wack with TT at the moment.

I would love to see the numbers brought more in line with TT. That is only about 60% of the missiles hitting the mech even if it's a 'hit'. 1 damage per missile, not 1.8. Increase the shots per ton to compensate for the doubled armor, this goes for some of the other weapons too. Reduce the range from 1000m to 630m. Yes, that means ER PPCs out range them, it's also MUCH harder to hit with an ER PPC at 800m than it is to hit with LRMs.

When you look at what LRMs should be vs what they are it's pretty jarring.

TT: 630 max range, average damage for LRM 20 14, same hit chance as any other weapon
MWO: 1000m max range, average damage for LRM 36, streak style lock and fire

That isn't even close to the same weapon system.

Now some of you think thats fine (and probably use a lot of LRMs). Keep this in mind... Clan LRMs are half the weight and size of IS Lrms. There is a 30 ton Clan mech that mounts 2 LRM15s and an LRM5. A Timber Wolf or Vulture mounts 30-40 LRMs in primary configuration. Almost every Clan mech has at LEAST an LRM10 because that's only a couple of tons of investment. Do you really want to see what happens when a Dire Wolf decides that "LRMS ARE SO KEWL KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE"? I don't. They run some 50ish tons of pod space, he could pack on 10 LRM 20s and still have room for 15 some odd tons of ammo.

[Trauglodyte]

Jakob Knight, on 06 March 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Only if you remove any effect of ECM on aquiring targets for LRMs in any way, make them able to hit targets that were fired upon at launch regardless of how that mech moves, and removed the minimum range damage elimination. These changes are also TT, and implementing the changes you suggest without doing all of the above only results in a gimped weapon system, not a readjustment to 'proper' performance.

There was always a minimum range on LRMs, though, outside of the Clan versions.

As far as ECM, preventing the hard lock was always dumb. I never minded the reduction in lock-on time and actually think that it needs to be doubled wiht the lock prevention removed. On top of that, it should act as the anti-TAG/NARC/Artemis.

[thefinn]

Honestly, I am deeply shocked that anyone with a clue would even come close to suggesting that LRMS need nerfing.

We have hitbox bugs on small mechs, small mech ECM which makes LRMS completely useless at ANY range, and LRMS do nothing within 200m to anyone.

So on top of running a 2xLRM20-artemis and 2 Medium Laser catapult, I now need a nerf to the only weapon it has that means a **** ?

Are you on crack ?

[Livewyr]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

0.5.

****, you would need ten tons to scratch a correctly build assualt.

Under normal circumstances.. yes.
Give it 35% accuracy from Artemis usage (LOS)
Give it 35% accuracy from NARC
Give it 25%-35% accuracy from TAG

(Where TAG and Artemis stack, but not Art and NARC, or TAG and NARC.)

They weren't supposed to be the Apex predator they are now.. they should soften things up (unless you boost them.. then they can be the predator.)

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

LRMs do need a serious fundamental revamp. I'm glad Thomas finally got the missile flight path down right now, but here's the problem.

LRM's (especially Artemis) are now doing INSANE raw damage (1.8 per missile) with AMAZING accuracy. The reason why the damage was even upp'd to 1.8 was because it offset the horrible accuracy of the missiles, so the net damage was ok, assuming you missed half your salvo (look at your weapon stats with LRMs, mine is barely 38%).

But now that the flight pattern is fixed, people are doing just stupid amounts of damage because the missile are no longer missing thier targets. Hell, for the first time since July, I HEAD SHOT a mech with 2 LRM15 arty salvos. Clean headshot. I kid you not, I have witnesses in this thread.

LRMs are broken (not that they've ever not been) but now that the flight patterns are finally working right, its time for PGI to look at ALL the other stats of LRMs, including the minimum range, flight speed, damage per missile, and add in missile acceleration when initially fired.

Just a few days ago on Alpine, I took my Phract sniper against an LRM boat at ~900m. Before his first LRM salvo even reached me, I had managed to get 3 full alpha strikes and kill him. It took a good 7 seconds for his LRMs to finally reach me, and when they did I just side stepped since I had killed him, losing the missile lock.

Sorry, but LRMs are still horribly broken due to just simply horrible weapon mechanics.

I had ranted about all this MONTHS ago in this thread -> http://mwomercs.com/...-and-heres-how/


And the worst part is, we still don't have things like NARC, and BAP working nearly as well as they should. And its kinda a shame we don't have more advanced options like Hot Loaded LRM racks and Alt. Ammo types (inferno LRMs for instance).

Edited by mwhighlander, 06 March 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[Davers]

Jonathan E, on 06 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

What grates me is that in most online games when a sniper annhilates you several times you just respawn, spend 10 minutes working your way behind him and then knife him in the back. The thrill of that makes you want to play more, even if you got him back only once for the 10 times he murdered you. In Mechwarrior Online that's not really an option.

You can still do this in MWO. Use cover and advance. Just because you are piloting a mech doesn't mean you can't use the same tactics that worked in other games.

[Thegreatdive]

The only major change that is really needed atm is, as others have said, get rid of integrated C3. I hate when the first thing I hear in a PUg is "LRM boat here, spot for me." Do your own damn spotting. LRM boats are typically Stalkers or Atlases, assaults designed to take punishment, who then complain that I can't keep a lock because I'm too busy not getting chopped to bits by the enemy assault group while our assaults sit behind a ridge tabbing targets, firing, and wasting ammo.

As a mostly Jenner pilot, I don't find LRMs particularly overpowered damagewise, or difficult to avoid, but they should have some skillcurve, support group, or thought behind them. Adding a c3 module would attentuate a true spotting role for the Tag/NARC users out there, and force LRM boats not using it out into the open. God forbid you actually have to see what you're shooting at.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I call bullcrap to anyone saying their missiles never miss their targets.

I played 6 games last night, I run a Centurion with an XL275 engine. I lived till the end in 4 out of the 6 games. I am able to dictate where I fire from due to my speed. I also run TAG and Artemis.

I still only had a 30% hit rate.

LRM's do not need to be fixed at all in the current game. If PGI ever gets around to nerfing ECM then we can revisit it a bit.

[thefinn]

Grizley, on 06 March 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

LRMs are the system most obviously out of wack with TT at the moment.

I would love to see the numbers brought more in line with TT. That is only about 60% of the missiles hitting the mech even if it's a 'hit'. 1 damage per missile, not 1.8. Increase the shots per ton to compensate for the doubled armor, this goes for some of the other weapons too. Reduce the range from 1000m to 630m. Yes, that means ER PPCs out range them, it's also MUCH harder to hit with an ER PPC at 800m than it is to hit with LRMs.

When you look at what LRMs should be vs what they are it's pretty jarring.

TT: 630 max range, average damage for LRM 20 14, same hit chance as any other weapon
MWO: 1000m max range, average damage for LRM 36, streak style lock and fire

That isn't even close to the same weapon system.

Now some of you think thats fine (and probably use a lot of LRMs). Keep this in mind... Clan LRMs are half the weight and size of IS Lrms. There is a 30 ton Clan mech that mounts 2 LRM15s and an LRM5. A Timber Wolf or Vulture mounts 30-40 LRMs in primary configuration. Almost every Clan mech has at LEAST an LRM10 because that's only a couple of tons of investment. Do you really want to see what happens when a Dire Wolf decides that "LRMS ARE SO KEWL KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE"? I don't. They run some 50ish tons of pod space, he could pack on 10 LRM 20s and still have room for 15 some odd tons of ammo.

You guys also forget to mention the lack of being able to fire indirectly behind cover.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

LRM's do not need to be fixed at all in the current game. If PGI ever gets around to nerfing ECM then we can revisit it a bit.

Exactly.

I am honestly completely ******* shocked anyone has the GALL to bring this up as a reasonable topic.

Edited by thefinn, 06 March 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

I call bullcrap to anyone saying their missiles never miss their targets.

I played 6 games last night, I run a Centurion with an XL275 engine. I lived till the end in 4 out of the 6 games. I am able to dictate where I fire from due to my speed. I also run TAG and Artemis.

I still only had a 30% hit rate.

LRM's do not need to be fixed at all in the current game. If PGI ever gets around to nerfing ECM then we can revisit it a bit.

Nobody is saying that missiles miss. What we're saying is that, in TT, when you hit with a salvo of missiles, not all of the missiles actually hit. You rolled to hit, check. THen you did a dice roll to see how many missiles actually landed. Then you did a dice roll for where each cluster landed. In MWO, when your missiles land, all of the missiles hit. There aren't a few that fly over your shoulder or under your arms. Hiding behind terrain doesn't count as a "miss" in what we're talking about.

[Yankee77]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

They weren't supposed to be the Apex predator they are now.. they should soften things up (unless you boost them.. then they can be the predator.)

Clearly we've been playing a different game.

Try some 8-mans for a bit, where people know better than to walk out into the open and make themselves easy target, and ECM is used abundantly.

Furthermore, LRMs are the single most easiest weapon to defend against even WITHOUT ECM. Cover exists in every map (yes, even alpine), if you walk out in the open and stay there long enough to be slaughtered by massive salvos of LRMs its not because LRMs are OP. It's your fault, you had plenty of warning and stayed out and stayed in the open (and I'm not saying you're a bad player. It happens to me too from time to time... and every single time I do it I am fully aware that I screwed up and it was my fault).

Does that mean LRMs are perfect? No, but the LAST thing they need is a nerf. Nerf them more and they become entirely worthless, like they've nearly been for the last few months in competitive drops (with this artemis fix, the PPC fix, and maybe the state rewind nerfing lights they might finally become viable in 8-mans).

Maybe they could be changed, some have been suggested in this thread already (speed them up, remove indirect fire unless actively spotted, etc.), but they certainly should not be nerfed.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 06 March 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Nobody is saying that missiles miss. What we're saying is that, in TT, when you hit with a salvo of missiles, not all of the missiles actually hit. You rolled to hit, check. THen you did a dice roll to see how many missiles actually landed. Then you did a dice roll for where each cluster landed. In MWO, when your missiles land, all of the missiles hit. There aren't a few that fly over your shoulder or under your arms. Hiding behind terrain doesn't count as a "miss" in what we're talking about.

And I'm saying in the current game, assuming ECM isn't involved in any major way, i'm hitting 30% of the time with my missiles.

That is fine.

If i'm against a VERY good team, or ECM is put to good use, or all mechs in the vicinity of my missiles have AMS, I suddenly go 0-10% of my missiles hitting.

Don't quote TT rules here, because unless ECM is TT, and the ability to get 4 messages about incoming missiles and react to them is in TT, and being able to watch and react to my slow missiles in real time is in TT, TT doesn't apply.

[Smk]

mwhighlander, on 06 March 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

LRMs do need a serious fundamental revamp. I'm glad Thomas finally got the missile flight path down right now, but here's the problem.

LRM's (especially Artemis) are now doing INSANE raw damage (1.8 per missile) with AMAZING accuracy. The reason why the damage was even upp'd to 1.8 was because it offset the horrible accuracy of the missiles, so the net damage was ok, assuming you missed half your salvo (look at your weapon stats with LRMs, mine is barely 38%).

But now that the flight pattern is fixed, people are doing just stupid amounts of damage because the missile are no longer missing thier targets. Hell, for the first time since July, I HEAD SHOT a mech with 2 LRM15 arty salvos. Clean headshot. I kid you not, I have witnesses in this thread.

LRMs are broken (not that they've ever not been) but now that the flight patterns are finally working right, its time for PGI to look at ALL the other stats of LRMs, including the minimum range, flight speed, damage per missile, and add in missile acceleration when initially fired.

Just a few days ago on Alpine, I took my Phract sniper against an LRM boat at ~900m. Before his first LRM salvo even reached me, I had managed to get 3 full alpha strikes and kill him. It took a good 7 seconds for his LRMs to finally reach me, and when they did I just side stepped since I had killed him, losing the missile lock.

Sorry, but LRMs are still horribly broken due to just simply horrible weapon mechanics.

I had ranted about all this MONTHS ago in this thread -> http://mwomercs.com/...-and-heres-how/


And the worst part is, we still don't have things like NARC, and BAP working nearly as well as they should. And its kinda a shame we don't have more advanced options like Hot Loaded LRM racks and Alt. Ammo types (inferno LRMs for instance).

You do realize that LRMs aren't even used in tourny play because they're so bad? If maps had less cover to hide behind I could see it being an issue. As it stands LRMs are just for picking off bad players in normal matches as anyone decent will just move to the nearest cover and make you useless.

[Balsover]

Smk, on 06 March 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

You do realize that LRMs aren't even used in tourny play because they're so bad? If maps had less cover to hide behind I could see it being an issue. As it stands LRMs are just for picking off bad players in normal matches as anyone decent will just move to the nearest cover and make you useless.

No, over the top ECM makes LRM's useless. And any decent 8 man team run's at least two ECM's. Fix ECM to allow a personal LOS target, and adjust missile hit rolls. That would be a solution.

[focuspark]

This is very similar to something I've been suggesting for a while now:

LRM should target a location not a mech. If indirect fire, they can arc over terrain but not chase a mech. If direct fire they should be like a massive SRM cloud. NARC and TAG should make LRM homing. LRM fired at a NARC or TAG marked target should home in like they do now.

To balance this change, missile warning needs to go away and the LRM velocity needs a 3x boost to 300 m/s at least.

[Trauglodyte]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

And I'm saying in the current game, assuming ECM isn't involved in any major way, i'm hitting 30% of the time with my missiles.

That is fine.

If i'm against a VERY good team, or ECM is put to good use, or all mechs in the vicinity of my missiles have AMS, I suddenly go 0-10% of my missiles hitting.

Don't quote TT rules here, because unless ECM is TT, and the ability to get 4 messages about incoming missiles and react to them is in TT, and being able to watch and react to my slow missiles in real time is in TT, TT doesn't apply.

And that accuracy of 30% is because people are ducking behind cover. This isn't hard but I'll try it again:

In TT, if I'm standing still, you have to roll dice to see if you hit (step 1). Then, if you hit, you roll dice again to see how many missiles hit (step 2). Finally, you roll dice to see where each cluster of missiles hit (step 3). In MWO, if I'm standing still and you fire LRMs at me, you hit with all of them. The only time you get partial hits or misses is if someone ducks behind cover, AMS shoots down some of the missiles, they enter an ECM bubble and you lose targetting, they exceed 1000m and your missiles self destruct, or they enter 179m or closer and your missiles don't arm.