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Can We Expand The Range Of Mechs That Can Run Ecm?


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#41 Erik Hollister

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:22 PM

Tarman -

I do think ECM sucks in its current state, but the point is its current state appears to be its permanent state. Its a "game changer" as it was described by PGI when the introduced it, and they weren't kidding. It may be a defeatist attitude to say give it to a wider range of mechs, but I look at it as a way to balance the game. As it is, a 3L is way more valuable than most mechs in the game. Small hit box, packs a bit of a punch, fast as hell, and not only negates auto target weapons on itself, but when used properly (in close and harrassing), negates the use of all enemy targeted missles under the umbrella. I would much prefer they just fix it with some of the ideas that have been presented in the forums, but that doesn't appear to be likely.

Pater Mors - I don't LRM boat. I do use a crusader with 1 LRM15 in its build, and its a pretty fun build with 2 SSRMS, 2 MLs, and an MG. Now, if I run into an ecm team with this mech, I'm dead... so I tend to run away from anthing I cant target early on... hiding in the shadows as it were (sound like an argument against LRMs?) If I get a target, then I can engage, usually at about 250m. I could get rid of the ssrms and go srm6, which would help against the ecms. I can't go non-target lrm though. TAG, yeah, I know.... hard to tag a zigging 3L... usually not enough time.

Point is, I run a balanced mech. If you take away half my tonnage of weapons, I'm not much of a threat.

How is the laser crowd going to feel when they introduce mirror chaf launchers that form a cloud of protection around half the battlefield (joking, but I wouldn't put it past PGI at this point).

#42 Tincan Nightmare

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostPater Mors, on 09 March 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I disagree with giving ECM to everyone. ECM is supposed to be an Information Warfare weapon and that is not the role that every Mech should be playing. It should be limited to scouts, lights and certain heavy and assault chassis as it is now.


Except that it isn't used for information warfare, it is used as an LRM shield and makes most games close range brawls. This need to keep it limited to just a handful of mechs, otherwise it is too powerful and ruins the game, is the perfect example of why it needs to be adjusted down in its abilities. If a premade group wanted to, they could already run a team composed entirely of ECM mechs if they want, this would just open the field to allow the same for pugs. If something is just too good that it ruins the game if everyone has it, then maybe it shouldn't be that good.

#43 Erik Hollister

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostTarman, on 09 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:



That is an extremely silly way to prove a point. That would change the meta no matter what kit it was, because you've drastically changed the delivery model of that kit, not the kit itself. If we let everyone mount an AC20 in their cockpit, that would change the game too, and would make about as much sense.

EXACTLY!!!

What the overall point of this thread is is that ECM is too much of a game changer. So if you want to change the game, CHANGE IT. Make every engine in the game an ECM generator, get rid of LRMS, streaks, maps, etc. IF you aren't willing to do that, then you are in effect argueing that ECM is OP.

Would putting an AC20 in every cockpit be stupid? Yes it would. It would change the game for the worse. But, in effect, right now there are 5 mechs running around with that proverbial cockpit AC20, and those with the big gun say "its fine, learn to play". I want the AC20s out of the cockpit, but in leiu of that, give it to all.

#44 Moromillas

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:29 PM

View PostTincan Nightmare, on 09 March 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Yes but this is the point. All those in defense of the current implementation of ECM say that it doesn't affect them and/or they can counter it. If thats the case then give it to every mech. Wether its OP or not will become evident once it is present in every match on every mech save new players in trials. Give all those arguing for keeping ECM as is what they want, just more off it.

I'm fairly certain we don't need a working model to say that ECM in its current form will turn the game into a steaming **** should you give it to everyone. Thoroughly bombing the game into oblivion in order to point out a flaw isn't exactly the best way to handle it, in my honest opinion.

Again, lets not.

#45 Tarman

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostErik Hollister, on 09 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Tarman -

I do think ECM sucks in its current state, but the point is its current state appears to be its permanent state. Its a "game changer" as it was described by PGI when the introduced it, and they weren't kidding. It may be a defeatist attitude to say give it to a wider range of mechs, but I look at it as a way to balance the game. As it is, a 3L is way more valuable than most mechs in the game. Small hit box, packs a bit of a punch, fast as hell, and not only negates auto target weapons on itself, but when used properly (in close and harrassing), negates the use of all enemy targeted missles under the umbrella. I would much prefer they just fix it with some of the ideas that have been presented in the forums, but that doesn't appear to be likely.

Pater Mors - I don't LRM boat. I do use a crusader with 1 LRM15 in its build, and its a pretty fun build with 2 SSRMS, 2 MLs, and an MG. Now, if I run into an ecm team with this mech, I'm dead... so I tend to run away from anthing I cant target early on... hiding in the shadows as it were (sound like an argument against LRMs?) If I get a target, then I can engage, usually at about 250m. I could get rid of the ssrms and go srm6, which would help against the ecms. I can't go non-target lrm though. TAG, yeah, I know.... hard to tag a zigging 3L... usually not enough time.

Point is, I run a balanced mech. If you take away half my tonnage of weapons, I'm not much of a threat.

How is the laser crowd going to feel when they introduce mirror chaf launchers that form a cloud of protection around half the battlefield (joking, but I wouldn't put it past PGI at this point).



The issue with the 3L is the issues with the 3L. It is a convergence of ECM ability, SSRM use/denial, and the super-sketched hitboxes. That isn't a pure ECM problem.

All it would to to hand out ECM to everyone would be to create an entirely new metagame than what we currently have, not necessarily a better one. I'd rather continue to add kit to the game that has drawbacks and advantages until we have a large selection of varied kit that can be used and combined in different ways. What I don't want is a bunch of rides that are all exactly the same in operational ability. That is boring.

The game still has a long development cycle ahead of it, and there are countless other additions to be had that will alter the meta in other ways without broadbanding kit powers. This isn't the final stage of the game, don't surrender just yet.

#46 Tarman

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostErik Hollister, on 09 March 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

EXACTLY!!!

What the overall point of this thread is is that ECM is too much of a game changer. So if you want to change the game, CHANGE IT. Make every engine in the game an ECM generator, get rid of LRMS, streaks, maps, etc. IF you aren't willing to do that, then you are in effect argueing that ECM is OP.

Would putting an AC20 in every cockpit be stupid? Yes it would. It would change the game for the worse. But, in effect, right now there are 5 mechs running around with that proverbial cockpit AC20, and those with the big gun say "its fine, learn to play". I want the AC20s out of the cockpit, but in leiu of that, give it to all.



Eww doubleposting, now I feel dirty.

You're not looking at this properly. ANY kit you did that to would change the meta. It has zero to do with the kit powers themselves at that point, and everything to do with availability. The availability is what would change the meta, not Kit Piece X.

#47 Pater Mors

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:35 PM

View PostErik Hollister, on 09 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:


Pater Mors - I don't LRM boat. I do use a crusader with 1 LRM15 in its build, and its a pretty fun build with 2 SSRMS, 2 MLs, and an MG. Now, if I run into an ecm team with this mech, I'm dead... so I tend to run away from anthing I cant target early on... hiding in the shadows as it were (sound like an argument against LRMs?) If I get a target, then I can engage, usually at about 250m. I could get rid of the ssrms and go srm6, which would help against the ecms. I can't go non-target lrm though. TAG, yeah, I know.... hard to tag a zigging 3L... usually not enough time.

Point is, I run a balanced mech. If you take away half my tonnage of weapons, I'm not much of a threat.

How is the laser crowd going to feel when they introduce mirror chaf launchers that form a cloud of protection around half the battlefield (joking, but I wouldn't put it past PGI at this point).


That build is a great build for smashing any Mech without ECM but obviously as you've discovered ECM gives you problems due to the SSRMs. It's still a viable build though and doesn't prove that ECM is broken. If you switch your SSRMs for SRMs as you've stated you'll have a ton more FP on ECM carriers but require closer ranges to make the damage count and obviously lose the ease of use that SSRMs have. It's a trade off but not a broken or unbalanced one.

That right there is what I love about this game. That is role warfare and you have decided on your role and (I assume) perform it well. You've got a well balanced medium to short range brawler that has a weakness to ECM Giving yourself and every other Mech ECM will actually hurt your build massively. You won't be able to target anyone ever!!

As I said I run a Treb with 2xLRM15's and 4x ML. I try to engage at about 400m, use up my LRM's and then brawl with the lasers. I honestly rarely have trouble finding LRM targets and I am well enough stocked to take on any light ECM carriers that stray too close.

#48 Caboose30

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:40 PM

I noticed how a lot of the posts stating ECM should be able to go on any chassis have likes, and not many other posts do. I made a forum for ECM flame, but in all honesty, make your own posts and polls about it. Spam about it as much as you can and it will be addressed directly. We just haven't made enough noise for long enough yet. Just think what would happen if every person in here made one ECM thread, and everyone that read that made their own ECM thread. It's like spamming your congressman via post.. After a while they'll answer you just to shut you up.

#49 Headlessnewt

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

I know that putting ECM on every variant will break the game. The very fact that putting it on every variant will break the game is reason enough for me to say that ECM needs to have its functionality changed.

As far as 'Electronic warfare should be restricted to electronic warfare mechs!' I actually totally agree with this sentiment and would like to see it expanded on.

However, I don't see why any specific variants should be labeled 'Electronic Warfare' variants, just like no variant should be labeled a 'sniper' variant or a 'brawler' variant. Electrical systems should be mountable in any chassis with the space for them, and choosing to do that should make you an electronic warfare mech. I am completely pro-player choice, and limiting ECM to only 5 out of 62 variants strongly restricts choice if you want to be an electronic warfare mech.

I also wouldn't mind ECM being on specific variants as much if they were clearly giving something up to use it, but right now ECM's advantages outweigh its opportunity cost by several times, and the ECM-bearing variants are not significantly inherently weakened by their ECM hardpoint. Consider each of the variants run without ECM and how well they compare to the others:
  • The 3L is probably still the best Raven
  • The Atlas DC is down 2 Energy from the D but has an extra Missile to compensate (and so is fine)
  • The Cicada 3M has the weight for a UAC/5, making it very flexible
  • The Spider 5D... might be inferior, but it's hard to say, since Spiders are always poor damage-dealers.
  • The Commando 2D is still strong, with 3 Missile points.


#50 Ronin Cahill

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 05:33 PM

Like any real Military situation there are counter measures to electronic based technology. In the case of MW the BAP is supposed to penetrate it. For some reason the DEVs have not implimented that feature. That 1.5 ton unit is a choice item, if you dont take it you risk being at a disadvantage but have more HS or Firepower...if you choose the careful approach you will be short a weapon, HS or speed but something has to be sacrificed to obtain it. Fairly balanced if you ask me.
Ronin

#51 Erik Hollister

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:35 PM

View PostRonin Cahill, on 09 March 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Like any real Military situation there are counter measures to electronic based technology. In the case of MW the BAP is supposed to penetrate it. For some reason the DEVs have not implimented that feature. That 1.5 ton unit is a choice item, if you dont take it you risk being at a disadvantage but have more HS or Firepower...if you choose the careful approach you will be short a weapon, HS or speed but something has to be sacrificed to obtain it. Fairly balanced if you ask me.
Ronin

Hey, if BAP actually penetrated ECM, problem solved. I'd gladly unload 1.5T worth of gear/armor to be able to eliminate ecm. Maybe, someday, the devs will make it work. Here's hoping.

#52 DegeneratePervert

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:22 PM

The issue isn't ECM, it is streak missiles. As long as the dev team continues to tighten and improve netcode and hit registration, ecm is more balanced as time goes on. The problem is that when in a light mech, it is very apparent that Streaks are stupid powerful and decide nearly every light mech dogfight. Prevent streaks (or anything) from gaining a lock while under "disrupt" for anyone in the bubble, including teammates, and we'll stop seeing stupid LRM DDCs, streak-mandos, Cravens, and all that other rubbish.

#53 Blaze Misaki

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:54 PM

now while i do think ecm needs balancing i would not like to see it go to every mech but instead possibly be put into underdog mech's in each weight class. to help define underdog mechs i mean the ones in their weight class that are under powered like the awesome yes i love the mech and i do well in it but if you look at it ton for ton the atlas and the stalker have more armor carry more weapons and go just as fast which makes me look at it as an underdog(the exception being the 9-m variant which at least has speed over the other two)





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