186 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

There are no Clans.
They do not exist.
You have been warned.
FedCom MilSec

[LordDante]

OneEyed Jack, on 07 March 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

You know they have Ultra AC20s, right?

yeah i know that
BUT

a man that defends his homeworld is 2 times
as dangerous !

Edited by LordDante, 07 March 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

xhrit, on 06 March 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

I think clan gear should have higher spike damage but longer cycle time, thus making it the exact same DPS as IS weapons, but better in the fast and flexible style fights favored by the clans.

I am afraid this won't work very well as a balancing method. You need to really finetune the spike damage of an 8-12 man team so that they don't simply kill too many of their enemies before their "spike time" is over. If you don't finetune it well enough, the IS team will have lost so much firepower by the time the Clan spike is over, that the Clan "non-spike" is still superior.

To give you a simple, 1 vs 1 scenario. 2 Mechs with 200 points of armour. Mech one deals 250 points of damage every 25 seconds, Mech two deals 10 damage every second. Same theoretical DPS, but the first mech will have already killed the second mech way before it has fired any shot. Even in less ridiculous scenarios, you will get easily situations where the alpha striker is simply too quickly in taking out the enemy that theoretical DPS equality doesn't mean anything.
The problem gets more complicated as you add players, because then you have to account for teamwork.

[Hotthedd]

Endgame124, on 07 March 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Sure, its cannon - something like 3055 or so? So in 2018, I'm OK with mixtech. Mixtech in 3050 is like trying to plug your GeForce GTX 680 into your Pentium 100 - even if you can over come the physical slot and power problems, the rest of the system still isn't going to be able to really get value out of the 680...

Canon. As in able to be done w/o breaking the "rules". But yes, Clantech should not be available to IS pilots via C-bills, it would need some sort of salvage reward system.

[Vasces Diablo]

Working under the assumption that we will actually have access to clan tech, I think people are over estimating how much better is/will be.

In TT, clan tech is crazy better, but is has to be because of the way TT works. You fire a weapon maybe 5-10 times in TT vs the 20+ in MWO. Also, hit locations are random, so 5 ER Mediums will very well hit 5 different locations, not the pinpoint that is MWO. This all equals weapons and equip being scaled waaaaayyyy back when implemented, otherwise it would be utterly game breaking.

So ultimately, I'm guessing it won't be that big of a deal. Clan tech will be better, but not past the point if IS mechs wont be competitive.

Now, if clan tech is available for MC.... The Internet will melt from the fires of rage.

[Novawrecker]

Varancar, on 07 March 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

Slightly off topic: what if clans get 'summon elemental' consumable?

Then so do we .... bring on the Kanazuchi Battle Armors!

[ROFLwaffle49]

I think clans will be balanced with CW, like maybe clans have to bid on matches and drops or have to pay R&R while houses don't or something of the like, making it a monetary balance. That would allow for the mechs and weapons themselves to stay as awesomely OP as they are.

[Terror Teddy]

It will be simple to balance.

Matches are paired by the total C-Bill cost of all combined mechs. This Clans will be of lighter chassis or fewer.

-Clans cannot exchange or modify their internals as per SARNA on omnimech limitations
-IS cannot use Clan internals on their chassis due to not being omnimech chassis

-Weapons can be interchangable but must be POD modified or POD removed per side.

Because the most unbalanced mech is a favourable designed IS mech with clan IS gear and clan customized engine speed with clan weapons.

This sets the difference between the two sides it both internal equipment and flexibility of modifying the hull and above all the combat matching.

[Protection]

Here's another issue: a lot of competitive players are going to make a big deal about their kill-death ratio and stats.

In a 5v8, Clan stats are almost always going to be much better than Inner Sphere stats. More kills, more damage, better accuracy (SSRM6, CLRM20) - Clans win out almost categorically.

You could consider making a Clan kill worth 2 kills? Or segregating Clan statistics from IS statistics.

[Lootee]

Teralitha, on 07 March 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Splatcats will still decimate even clan mechs. Oh yea... 90 damage alpha strike can kill anything in 1 or 2 hits, even the biggest fattest clan assault mech doesnt stand a chance.

Yeah try that against the Night Gyr shooting 80 LRMs at you while you approach and then shooting the equivalent of a SRM40 at your face when you think you have the up close advantage. Clan LRMs have no min range and can be used just like SRMs up close and weigh 50% less than IS versions. His alpha strike is 144 damage from 0-1000m.

Clan mechs and weapons need to be better if they want to capture the feel of TT. Having smaller teams is probably the best and canon way of balancing Clan vs IS. 1 star vs 2 lances or 2 stars vs 3 lances sounds about right, since there is no way to enforce Clan ROE. Just assume every battle will degenerate into a grand melee, because they probably will.

I wouldn't worry too much about the poor clanners being forced to drive cheddar every match. Because every Clan mech is already cheddar from the get go.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 07 March 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Ph30nix]

it all depends on implmentation,
If they clan tech itself is a limited thing thats one thing, but if anyone can buy any clan tech and use it at any time.... thats gonna cause problems. but you cant make it a 3 month grind to earn clan tech or just make it $$$$ for it.

Its gonna be tough, but personaly I DONT WANT to fight 8vs12 or 4vs8 and thats if im the IS player. I dont want to win just to hear some PUG whinning "oh you guys won cause we had less players" and we all know there will be players that do and they will gloat like a mother when they win for same reason.

in the end just because the tech is better doesnt mean it will win might have slight advantage but theres alot more variables in a fight then who has the better toys, at least when the gap isnt that large.

[Endgame124]

PanchoTortilla, on 07 March 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Having smaller teams is probably the best and canon way of balancing Clan vs IS. 1 star vs 2 lances or 2 stars vs 3 lances sounds about right, since there is no way to enforce Clan ROE. Just assume every battle will degenerate into a grand melee, because they probably will.

I'd say don't even give clan players the OPTION to not use Zellbrigen - force it in the game code. Clan player A damages IS Mech B. Clan Player A's weapons now only deal damage to IS Mech B and deal 0 damage to all other enemy mechs, unless another IS mech (say IS mech C) damages clan player A.

Just make it one of the downsides of playing the clans.

[Lootee]

Endgame124, on 07 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I'd say don't even give clan players the OPTION to not use Zellbrigen - force it in the game code. Clan player A damages IS Mech B. Clan Player A's weapons now only deal damage to IS Mech B and deal 0 damage to all other enemy mechs, unless another IS mech (say IS mech C) damages clan player A.

Just make it one of the downsides of playing the clans.

But then you have situations like a Spider challenges a Daishi to a duel. Daishi hits the Spider with a pulse laser. Spider jumps over a hill, finds a hiding place in a cave and shuts down for the rest of the match and ROFLs with troll face.

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

Monky, on 06 March 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

To be honest, Clans are the only reason I can see the devs keeping ECM as it is. It's currently about the only thing other than Gauss rifles that stand up to clan tech. if BAP, AMS, and NARC where improved, IS would be in somewhat decent shape.

The clans have their own superior ECM that trounces IS ECM...
Yeah, they're scary.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I suppose clan tech will be OP but heat values will keep things balanced. That's normally something along the lines of needing to change from it's original TT rule set into real time, which changes how things work dramatically.

'Cos we all know the clans have quadruple heat sinks or something like that to compensate, but those values can be changed to prevent things like

builds which can easily alpha strike, like many IS loadouts can.
builds which use no minimum range LRMs would generate so much heat it's unspammable (and for example if your blowing up an enemy standing right infront of you, you take the splash damage as well.) Rules like that which force us to adapt by restricting capability

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 07 March 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[EmeraldSongbird]

Are we assuming Inner Sphere mechs get absolutely no access to any clan tech?

[Harabeck]

Wow, I though this stuff was settled back in closed beta. Zellbrigen and different team sizes cannot work. Neither are actually viable from a game design viewpoint. Zellbrigen can't be enforced without insanely gamey mechanics, and different team sizes would be hell to balance and cause issues with matchmaking.

Clan mechs have to be balanced with IS mechs on a 1 to 1 basis. That this wasn't the case in lore or TT is completely irrelevant. The game just won't work unless they are.

[Truck Thunders]

Just a suggestion here - what about reintroducing R&R for Clan mechs only? And make it expensive as all holy hell, so that you can actually go broke if you play only Clan mechs and lose several matches in a row. I think WoT has something similar with its most elite tanks and people with elite tanks hate it, but hell, it's the price you pay for wanting to be superman.

[Harabeck]

Truck Thunders, on 07 March 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Just a suggestion here - what about reintroducing R&R for Clan mechs only? And make it expensive as all holy hell, so that you can actually go broke if you play only Clan mechs and lose several matches in a row. I think WoT has something similar with its most elite tanks and people with elite tanks hate it, but hell, it's the price you pay for wanting to be superman.

Won't work. In-game cost as a limiting factor just delays the noob slaughter by a few weeks. And when the average player gets killed by that super Clan mech, they won't care that its pilot had to grind to do it. Further, it will just make that grind required for CW.

[Terror Teddy]

Doobles, on 07 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Are we assuming Inner Sphere mechs get absolutely no access to any clan tech?

Weapons should work but you'd have to remove them from their POD mounting so I can see a conversion cost.

Omnimech internals are fixed to the chassis as they are built as one item and if you want that on an IS chassis you have to create an IS Omnimech.