186 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Alright smart guy. Since you're going to throw math at me and make a joke about it. Tell me how much 'better' a clan mech is than an IS mech and I want you to quote your sources. If you won't do that, then you are simply a derp.

Battletech Rules only for now:
Inner Sphere ER Medium Laser: 5 damage, 5 heat
Clan ER Medium Laser: 7 damage, 5 heat
Inner Sphere ER PPC: 10 damage, 15 heat, 7 tons, 3 crits
Clan ER PPC: 15 damage, 15 heat, 6 tons, 2 crits
Inner Sphere Endo Steel: 12 Crits
Clan Endo Steel: 6 Crits
IS Double Heat Sinks: 3 Crits
Clan Double Heat Sinks: 2 Crits

I'd settle for 50 %.


People worry about the 6 PPC Stalker? A 4 ER PPC Clan Stalker could deal the same damage, fit more heat sinks and additional weapons.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 10 March 2013 - 03:06 AM.

[Menthro Kerensky]

Am I the only IS pilot out there that WANTS to go up against a superior foe who has shiny toys that work better then mine? Oddly enough as long as my disadvantage isn't to the point where it is absolutely game crippling I think it will be quite fun, or maybe it's the space viking inside of me screaming for a gloried place in Valhalla.../shrug.

[Vassago Rain]

Menthro, on 10 March 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Am I the only IS pilot out there that WANTS to go up against a superior foe who has shiny toys that work better then mine? Oddly enough as long as my disadvantage isn't to the point where it is absolutely game crippling I think it will be quite fun, or maybe it's the space viking inside of me screaming for a gloried place in Valhalla.../shrug.

It'll be crippling. Unless we get mixtech, and the clanners have reduced numbers, we're gonna get pwnd. Thesse aren't bots we're playing against.

[Menthro Kerensky]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

It'll be crippling. Unless we get mixtech, and the clanners have reduced numbers, we're gonna get pwnd. Thesse aren't bots we're playing against.

Wait, so all those guys in the training grounds server weren't there? Seriously though, quite a few good ideas in this thread now that I've actually read it. In my honest opinion though you simply can't limit clan drop numbers versus Inner Sphere. While it makes sense from a lore prospective it just doesn't translate well into a PvP based game. Losing 2 or even 4 of your team right off the bat without the enemy being injured is such a huge disadvantage even with ubermechs, because of team play, yah the clan mechs can hit harder, move faster, with the technology we have (heh), but at the end of the day being 2 men, or women, down is too severe a disadvantage, it has to be balanced a different way, and as to mixtech? For the love of god not right off the bat, make us earn it.

[Vassago Rain]

Menthro, on 10 March 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Wait, so all those guys in the training grounds server weren't there? Seriously though, quite a few good ideas in this thread now that I've actually read it. In my honest opinion though you simply can't limit clan drop numbers versus Inner Sphere. While it makes sense from a lore prospective it just doesn't translate well into a PvP based game. Losing 2 or even 4 of your team right off the bat without the enemy being injured is such a huge disadvantage even with ubermechs, because of team play, yah the clan mechs can hit harder, move faster, with the technology we have (heh), but at the end of the day being 2 men, or women, down is too severe a disadvantage, it has to be balanced a different way, and as to mixtech? For the love of god not right off the bat, make us earn it.

it makes perfect sense in a PVP game. These units are FAR superior to these units, so they count as two units each. 5 on 12, 4 on 8, and so on.

This also lets you take some clan mechs and some IS mechs, because even thinking of splitting the factions is stupid. Mixtech's necessary right from the start.

If not, the golden master race of early clan users will simply ruin everybody, and we're never gonna be in a position where we can put mixtech on our mechs, as all players will by then have moved over to clan exclusively.

[Taemien]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

Battletech Rules only for now:
Inner Sphere ER Medium Laser: 5 damage, 5 heat
Clan ER Medium Laser: 7 damage, 5 heat
Inner Sphere ER PPC: 10 damage, 15 heat, 7 tons, 3 crits
Clan ER PPC: 15 damage, 15 heat, 6 tons, 2 crits
Inner Sphere Endo Steel: 12 Crits
Clan Endo Steel: 6 Crits
IS Double Heat Sinks: 3 Crits
Clan Double Heat Sinks: 2 Crits

I'd settle for 50 %.

If you're going to quote values, at least quote them properly AND use weapons that are currently in the time line. Oh and make sure when you redo your list that you check the values of the MWO weapons. For example the Large Laser does more damage in MWO and has less heat than the TT version.

Quote

People worry about the 6 PPC Stalker? A 4 ER PPC Clan Stalker could deal the same damage, fit more heat sinks and additional weapons.

You mean this thing?



A whole whopping 60 firepower with a torso so wide it makes the Awesome look small. There's a reason why its called an "Apartment building that walks like a man."

By the way those DHS are going to be stressed at 1.4 value. Oh and just FYI I don't worry about boat mechs like the 6PPC Stalker and Splatcats. Those are gimped builds. As will any clan boat made.

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

It'll be crippling. Unless we get mixtech, and the clanners have reduced numbers, we're gonna get pwnd. Thesse aren't bots we're playing against.

Only PUGs (when against premades) and Scrubs will get pwned. I've got over 10 years of experience fighting clans using strictly IS technology, spanning over 3 MechWarrior games, playing in Tournements and Leagues (Planetary and Ladder), I don't think I'm going to have a problem.

Not everyone needs an unfair advantage to have a chance against an opponent, Vassago. So I think your point is void.

[Vassago Rain]

Taemien, on 10 March 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

If you're going to quote values, at least quote them properly AND use weapons that are currently in the time line. Oh and make sure when you redo your list that you check the values of the MWO weapons. For example the Large Laser does more damage in MWO and has less heat than the TT version.



You mean this thing?



A whole whopping 60 firepower with a torso so wide it makes the Awesome look small. There's a reason why its called an "Apartment building that walks like a man."

By the way those DHS are going to be stressed at 1.4 value. Oh and just FYI I don't worry about boat mechs like the 6PPC Stalker and Splatcats. Those are gimped builds. As will any clan boat made.




Only PUGs (when against premades) and Scrubs will get pwned. I've got over 10 years of experience fighting clans using strictly IS technology, spanning over 3 MechWarrior games, playing in Tournements and Leagues (Planetary and Ladder), I don't think I'm going to have a problem.

Not everyone needs an unfair advantage to have a chance against an opponent, Vassago. So I think your point is void.

I think you'll find that, yet again, and like all other issues I've predicted, I'll be right on this thing, too. That's assuming the devs go with a terrible implementation for the clans, which shouldn't happen.

[Taemien]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

I think you'll find that, yet again, and like all other issues I've predicted, I'll be right on this thing, too. That's assuming the devs go with a terrible implementation for the clans, which shouldn't happen.

We'll see. In all honesty this thread means very little. Everything is conjecture until we actually see the values. Who knows, they may fudge the values enough to make the clans balanced weapon for weapon by increasing cooldowns, heat, or other beam durations.

I mean already PPCs are pretty damn strong vs Clan ER PPCs.

8 Heat, 10 Damage
15 Heat, 15 Damage

Almost half the heat meaning you can continuously fire them more often. Course math isn't going to explain how everything will work. I just know missing with a Clan ER PPC will punish you with 15 heat for no damage. That does add up after a while, especially at those long ranges.

Like I said, we'll see what happens. I doubt it will be all doom and gloom.

[CDLord HHGD]

IS mechs will still be worth while, once I shoehorn clan tech into them anyways .

Seriously, why do you think the TRO's after 3050 were chock full of new designs as the tech escalation recommenced went into overdrive?

[MustrumRidcully]

Taemien, on 10 March 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

If you're going to quote values, at least quote them properly AND use weapons that are currently in the time line. Oh and make sure when you redo your list that you check the values of the MWO weapons. For example the Large Laser does more damage in MWO and has less heat than the TT version.

Do you believe the Clan weapon stats will not be adapted, while the IS values did?
Should I also assume that the Clan Gauss Rifle will fire every 10 seconds, while the IS Gauss Rifle will keep firing every 4 seconds?

If so, let me correct my estimation - Clan Mechs will be 50 % weaker than IS mechs, and no one will play them.

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 10 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

Clan BattleMechs will be an issue, but I'm sure their hardpoints (which would work identically to IS hardpoints) would be limited to the bare minimum that they can hold (like the 3L). However Clan OmniMechs will not be able to mount different Internals, Armor (A big one since not many clan mechs max out armor), or Engines. What you see is what you get.

For example a Vulture Prime would pronbably have these hardpoints: 2 Missile (RT and LT), 2 Omni (LA and RA), and 2 Energy (LA and RA). So at the most you'd fit those four Er Mediums and have enough room for maybe some SSRM6s and ammo and DHS's. 58 Firepower in a lightly armored package that cannot exceed 85kph

I'd rather have a CPLT-C1, but that is a personal preference. The Vulture above would be formidable in the right hands. Nothing wrong with that.

Omnis are perfectly capable of modifying their internals in the lore, BUT the moment they do so they revert to a standard battlemech and thus lose their Omni capabilities. Our current IS units are battlemechs, so I would personally have no problem "downgrading" my Hellbringer (which comes stock with ECM and Streaks, lol) or something to a battlemech (which are currently very flexible).

Something I personally wonder is when an Omni does downgrade itself in MWO, how are the hardpoints assigned? (Assuming that Omnis get open "Pod Space" based on just tonnage like the lore instead of hardpoints). Would it be based on what weapons are equipped when the switch is made? (I.e. 2 lasers in the left arm makes them into 2 energy hardpoints forever). If Omnis do use hardpoints by default, then this part isn't as much of an issue (would they be "Omni" hardpoints like MW4?) there's not really much difference between them and battlemechs (which I can live with for the sake of playability but it might feel a little weird).

Taemien, on 10 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

I bet they use the TT values like they did with IS Lasers unless they prove to be underperforming. It makes sense since the chassis they are being mounted on will have different variables. This is just where we'll have to have faith they'll get it right. I think they will. I like how Large Lasers and PPCs perform currently. So I have no doubt that Clan versions will be in line.

TT Medium Laser makes 3 heat, here they make 4. TT Large Laser does 8 damage and 8 heat, ours does 9 and 7 (respectively). There are plenty of other weapons like this but I'm too lazy to hunt down all of the stats. Those are small modifications but they're not exact copy/paste TT values.

Edited by FupDup, 10 March 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Taemien]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 March 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Do you believe the Clan weapon stats will not be adapted, while the IS values did?
Should I also assume that the Clan Gauss Rifle will fire every 10 seconds, while the IS Gauss Rifle will keep firing every 4 seconds?

If so, let me correct my estimation - Clan Mechs will be 50 % weaker than IS mechs, and no one will play them.

I didn't say it would be exactly like that. I do know that in Closed Beta the Large Laser was 8 heat, 8 damage, its now 7 heat, 9 damage. The values are fudged a bit to make them 'work'. I have no doubt that they'll try for default values first, with similar recycle times as the IS weapons (3 seconds for ER PPCs, 3.25 for ER Large). They might make them longer, they might not, we'll have to see. I do believe that a Clan ER Large Laser starting at 12 heat, 10 damage at its range is a good start. It may eventually be less heat, but I don't believe they'll make it 9.5 heat, 10 damage to start.

FupDup, on 10 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Omnis are perfectly capable of modifying their internals in the lore, BUT the moment they do so they revert to a standard battlemech and thus lose their Omni capabilities. Our current IS units are battlemechs, so I would personally have no problem "downgrading" my Hellbringer (which comes stock with ECM and Streaks, lol) or something to a battlemech (which are currently very flexible).

Something I personally wonder is when an Omni does downgrade itself in MWO, how are the hardpoints assigned? (Assuming that Omnis get open "Pod Space" based on just tonnage like the lore instead of hardpoints). Would it be based on what weapons are equipped when the switch is made? (I.e. 2 lasers in the left arm makes them into 2 energy hardpoints forever). If Omnis do use hardpoints by default, then this part isn't as much of an issue (would they be "Omni" hardpoints like MW4?) there's not really much difference between them and battlemechs (which I can live with for the sake of playability but it might feel a little weird).

I think what they would do is have Omni Hardpoints and you purchase Alternate Configurations like you do Variants. For example a Vulture Prime might have 2 Missile Hardpoints, 2 Energy, and 2 Omni. Where the A would have 6 missile and 2 omni.

Personally what -I- would do is make OmniMechs insanely expensive. But you get all the variants with one mech purchase. Basically you select a variant and the hardpoints change to match that variant. Or you can purchase one variant and then others latter, but can select variants when in the mechlab. Basically OmniMechs have a few omni slots to make customization pretty flexible, plus you get multiple variants for the cost of one mechbay instead of 3-5. That'd be cool. I'd definitely would want an Owens and a Templar lol.

We kinda forget that Inner Sphere gets Omni's eventually, and those are some really great mechs.

Quote

TT Medium Laser makes 3 heat, here they make 4. TT Large Laser does 8 damage and 8 heat, ours does 9 and 7 (respectively). There are plenty of other weapons like this but I'm too lazy to hunt down all of the stats. Those are small modifications but they're not exact copy/paste TT values.

No their not and they shouldn't be. And those values can be tweaked here and there to make certain weapons feel right. For example, LRMs (and I'm not going into how they are balanced or not balanced with current patches, there's other threads for that). They set them at 1.9 damage and they uttlerly obliterated everything. They set them to 1.7 and they were underpowered. Then they set them to 1.8 and they were just right. Its kinda funny that 1-4 damage difference from LRM5-20 made that much of a difference.

For example if a Masakari Prime is decimating everything, even other clan mechs, then I'm sure they'll tweak the ER PPCs to have maybe more heat, maybe longer cooldowns. Could even tweak the projectile speed. They've got alot of variables to play with.

The point of the matter is, they aren't going to allow an entire tech base of mechs be totally obsolete. All that modeling, all that testing, all that texturing would go down the tubes. No developer is going to do that. There will always be a reason to play Inner Sphere, I'm sure of that.

[Rogue Jedi]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Explain how to place a Clan LB-20X Autocannon in either the left or right torso using the MWO build rules. And a hint for you, the components in black are part of the Omnimech's frame, meaning you cannot modify them or move them.

In addition, since you missed it. Even in a mechlab, Omnimechs, if PGI sticks to their building rules (which I see no reason why they wouldn't if they intend for them to have omni hardpoints), you will be unable to modify the Armor, Internal Structure, Locked Hardpoints (such as the flamer in the Puma's CT and the DHS on that Daishi above), Engine, and Heatsink Type.

So while Clan OmniMechs will have the option of greater weapon hardpoint variety, they will not have the flexibility that BattleMechs have in terms of engine or armor.

But if you were such an expert on BattleTech you would know that already. Seems like you just got schooled by a Legendary Founder.

I have never understood why a light Mech with a stick figure build has the same critical slots for componants as an assult Mech, if you compare any light to assult it seems the assult should have in excess of 4 times the internal volume

[christophermx4]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

It'll be crippling. Unless we get mixtech, and the clanners have reduced numbers, we're gonna get pwnd. Thesse aren't bots we're playing against.

Crippling is almost too weak of a word. IS Mechs will get laid to waste, without mercy. Green pilots who understand nothing about BT lore will rage quit.

[Tombstoner]

Rogue Jedi, on 10 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

I have never understood why a light Mech with a stick figure build has the same critical slots for componants as an assult Mech, if you compare any light to assult it seems the assult should have in excess of 4 times the internal volume

It is part of TT game balance that was tossed aside when MWO was implemented. MWO was in the position of being a complete reboot of the franchise with a completely redone set of values for all stats. i think it would have transcended all prior games and become the game the designers want to have, but are persisting in trying to shoehorn a mish mash of TT, lore into a FPS without weapons spread: A game mechanic present in all modern FPS and TT rules from the 80's.

I think game balance in MWO is done by the seat of there pants. Data is collected and Analise, but i think it just comes down to how does it feel.

[Roland]

Taemien, on 10 March 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

I've got over 10 years of experience fighting clans using strictly IS technology, spanning over 3 MechWarrior games, playing in Tournements and Leagues (Planetary and Ladder), I don't think I'm going to have a problem.

Quite frankly, you are woefully incorrect here.

You can't really compare Mechwarrior 4 to this. While the clan tech was still superior, Mechwarrior 4 took place much further along the timeline. You had access to top end IS Tech, like the Light Gauss.

In 3050, the clan tech is not simply a little better. It's superior to the extent that even when outnumbered, clan mechs will generally ALWAYS win. Their firepower is just immense by comparison.

[Yankee77]

Menthro, on 10 March 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Am I the only IS pilot out there that WANTS to go up against a superior foe who has shiny toys that work better then mine? Oddly enough as long as my disadvantage isn't to the point where it is absolutely game crippling I think it will be quite fun, or maybe it's the space viking inside of me screaming for a gloried place in Valhalla.../shrug.

Nope, you are not alone.

Now, that said, I think IS players should have a numerical advantage to offset the clan tech, but that's actually pretty canon (what with clan bidding rules and the likes, they always lowered their numbers to get a good challenge... silly clans *grin*).

But yeah, I would be happy to take on the clans with IS tech, at least for a bit. Eventually though I'll want a Mad Cat of my own.

[Kdogg788]

The absolute craziest thing, which will happen btw, is when trial mechs face off against clan tech. If a fully spec'd out Tier 2 tech Atlas would get shredded by the clan tech of lore, how do you think the trials are going to fare against them? It wouldn't break my heart if they took another year on this, besides clan technology is unimportant when compared to community warfare.

-k

[Grizley]

I find it kind of funny that someone thinks the Warhawk will have a wider torso than the Awesome. They're similar in weight, yet the Warhawk is about twice as long as the Awesome, and is very much a rectangle with the long edge side on.

From the side it will be a larger target, sure. From the front though, it will be a considerably smaller target. Same weight, and longer sides means smaller front.

[Vanguard319]

Teralitha, on 07 March 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Splatcats will still decimate even clan mechs. Oh yea... 90 damage alpha strike can kill anything in 1 or 2 hits, even the biggest fattest clan assault mech doesnt stand a chance.

Until you find yourself being utterly destroyed at long range by snipers w 3~4 clan Gauss rifles