400 replies to this topic

[Mechrophilia]

One of the biggest threats to LRM boats used to be ECM-light harrassment. Even if the lights didnt try to kill the LRMboat, their ECM prevented the boat from firing their missiles for extended periods of time. Now that Raven 3Ls are much easier to kill, LRM boats are allowed more time to shoot. Moreover, as was stated before, some of our latest patches have given players alot more LRMboat platforms as well as a new map that necessitates the use of ranged weapons. All these factors in conjunction means more LRMs overall.

Also, there are alot more players who, while not boating LRMs, are still tossing a few of them into their weapons loadouts, for previously stated reasons.

Basically, (one of the reasons) you're getting killed by them is because there ARE more of them.

One thing LRM boaters dont like one bit are poptart snipers, (or jumping mechs in general). If you're not confident in jumping mechs, then I suggest taking the time to get good with them. They're effective.

Edited by Mechrophilia, 10 March 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Sheraf]

Mechrophilia, on 10 March 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

One of the biggest threats to LRM boats used to be ECM-light harrassment. Even if the lights didnt try to kill the LRMboat, their ECM prevented the boat from firing their missiles for extended periods of time. Now that Raven 3Ls are much easier to kill, LRM boats are allowed more time to shoot. Moreover, as was stated before, some of our latest patches have given players alot more LRMboat platforms as well as a new map that necessitates the use of ranged weapons. All these factors in conjunction means more LRMs overall.

Also, there are alot more players who, while not boating LRMs, are still tossing a few of them into their weapons loadouts, for previously stated reasons.

Basically, (one of the reasons) you're getting killed by them is because there ARE more of them.

One thing LRM boaters dont like one bit are poptart snipers, (or jumping mechs in general). If you're not confident in jumping mechs, then I suggest taking the time to get good with them. They're effective.

One cover to rule them all , maybe two

[Mercules]

So... I went and checked my stats on two of my Tebuchets.

Treb 1. AC/5, PPC, 2 SRM4s
Treb 2. LRM10, LRM15, 3 Medium Lasers, TAG.

Guess which one has higher damage per match on average? That should be a good measure of effectiveness of a weapon system, right? Treb 1. It's not by a ton, but it does actually have more damage per match. Most of that is from the AC/5 and PPC from what I can tell. The SRM4s are averaging a point of damage per trigger pull... probably because I use them to scare away light mechs.

AC/5 + PPC = 15 damage

LRM10 + LRM15 = 45 damage

So how am I out damaging the "no skill, don't have to aim, noob weapon" LRMs have more damage per trigger pulll. Hmmmm... Maybe it is because they are so easy to actually counter so a lot of that damage goes to waste.


LRMs don't require a lot of AIMING but there is a skill to them none-the-less. The skill is different and involves knowing the map and open fire lines, where you can intercept people and rock them before they can hit cover, what targets are vulnerable to fire and which ones will quickly vanish, and more.

LRMs are useful and dangerous but not overly dangerous unless you expose yourself to counter-fire that can reach you a LOT quicker and use them in Direct Fire. Indirect fire is literally hit and miss and doesn't focus in like Artemis and spreads all over the place.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mercules, on 10 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

So... I went and checked my stats on two of my Tebuchets.

Treb 1. AC/5, PPC, 2 SRM4s
Treb 2. LRM10, LRM15, 3 Medium Lasers, TAG.

Guess which one has higher damage per match on average? That should be a good measure of effectiveness of a weapon system, right? Treb 1. It's not by a ton, but it does actually have more damage per match. Most of that is from the AC/5 and PPC from what I can tell. The SRM4s are averaging a point of damage per trigger pull... probably because I use them to scare away light mechs.

AC/5 + PPC = 15 damage

LRM10 + LRM15 = 45 damage

So how am I out damaging the "no skill, don't have to aim, noob weapon" LRMs have more damage per trigger pulll. Hmmmm... Maybe it is because they are so easy to actually counter so a lot of that damage goes to waste.


LRMs don't require a lot of AIMING but there is a skill to them none-the-less. The skill is different and involves knowing the map and open fire lines, where you can intercept people and rock them before they can hit cover, what targets are vulnerable to fire and which ones will quickly vanish, and more.

LRMs are useful and dangerous but not overly dangerous unless you expose yourself to counter-fire that can reach you a LOT quicker and use them in Direct Fire. Indirect fire is literally hit and miss and doesn't focus in like Artemis and spreads all over the place.

sadly your words will fall on deaf ears. They dont want to hear that LRMs arent OP

[Max Genius]

Mercules, on 10 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

So... I went and checked my stats on two of my Tebuchets.

Treb 1. AC/5, PPC, 2 SRM4s
Treb 2. LRM10, LRM15, 3 Medium Lasers, TAG.

Guess which one has higher damage per match on average? That should be a good measure of effectiveness of a weapon system, right? Treb 1. It's not by a ton, but it does actually have more damage per match. Most of that is from the AC/5 and PPC from what I can tell. The SRM4s are averaging a point of damage per trigger pull... probably because I use them to scare away light mechs.

AC/5 + PPC = 15 damage

LRM10 + LRM15 = 45 damage

So how am I out damaging the "no skill, don't have to aim, noob weapon" LRMs have more damage per trigger pulll. Hmmmm... Maybe it is because they are so easy to actually counter so a lot of that damage goes to waste.


LRMs don't require a lot of AIMING but there is a skill to them none-the-less. The skill is different and involves knowing the map and open fire lines, where you can intercept people and rock them before they can hit cover, what targets are vulnerable to fire and which ones will quickly vanish, and more.

LRMs are useful and dangerous but not overly dangerous unless you expose yourself to counter-fire that can reach you a LOT quicker and use them in Direct Fire. Indirect fire is literally hit and miss and doesn't focus in like Artemis and spreads all over the place.

Do you consider yourself a good LRM boat pilot? If not, then it again supports the point - not skilled with LRMs but able to do close damage with LOS weapons.

Answer me this? Which mech did you die more with - Treb 1 or Treb 2? I guess that you died more in Treb 1 since you actually had to put yourself in danger by engaging the enemy with that loadout. Treb 2 you probably died less in but you still caused similar damage - yes it's less - but still similar damage without being fired on.

[Noobzorz]

The more I play the more I am totally convinced that LRMs are really, really not in a good place right now. Tag + Artemis + LRM is insanely powerful and ridiculously easy to use, and the costs for boating them are so small.

[Revorn]

Noobzorz, on 10 March 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

The more I play the more I am totally convinced that LRMs are really, really not in a good place right now. Tag + Artemis + LRM is insanely powerful and ridiculously easy to use, and the costs for boating them are so small.

Atm when you wrote TAG and easy to use, your Post comes obsolent. Ever tryed to TAG an Mech consant for 5 seconds, or maybe only 3? Every shot with an Point Klick weapon is more easy, exept your Oponent stand still or is an slow movin Awesome/Atlas.

Edited by Revorn, 10 March 2013 - 10:39 PM.

[Lyrik]

Noobzorz, on 10 March 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

The more I play the more I am totally convinced that LRMs are really, really not in a good place right now. Tag + Artemis + LRM is insanely powerful and ridiculously easy to use, and the costs for boating them are so small.

I tried the LRM+Tag+Artemis combo on my Catapult C1. I can kill stuff with it. But you have to stay pretty close to the frontlines. This means you are prone to fast mechs harassing, LRM fire, sniper fire etc... while you have to tag, wait for the red circle and then hope that your target won't run away into cover...

Indirect fire deals low damage. Direct Artemis fire can destroy your target fairly easy IF they are standing in the open and you have LOS the entire time. But so can a 6PPC Stalker, an Splatcat etc. Damn, even my Jenner will kill you in seconds if you are standing still.

It's just easier to take 2xLL, 2xML and 2xASRM6, 300XL and kill stuff in close combat with the C1 xD

[Void Angel]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 10 March 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Ok just think about the word "skill" for a minute.

Now look at what it takes to use LRM. You get a red box then you put your cross hairs in that box until it locks. Then you pres your fire button. Thats not skill thats button mashing. Just like everything in this game. Skill is in piloting and aiming non lockable weapons and hitting target. And that truly does not take "skill" ether, just eye hand coordination.


Someone who can open your brain and remove something that should not be there then put you back together... now that's skill!

Is... is that what happened to you? Seriously, though, you couldn't be more simplistically wrong about LRMs. In order to use LRMS properly, you have to correctly evaluate the cover available for your target, and move to position yourself to minimize enemy cover without overexposing yourself. You can't just lock and open fire the way you describe - because you won't hit anyone who's paying attention and not suicidally stupid. Sure, that hillside will be very sorry it was on the receiving end of your Newbie New Year fireworks show, but the enemy will be laughing at you.

Revorn, on 10 March 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Atm when you wrote TAG and easy to use, your Post comes obsolent. Ever tryed to TAG an Mech consant for 5 seconds, or maybe only 3? Every shot with an Point Klick weapon is more easy, exept your Oponent stand still or is an slow movin Awesome/Atlas.

Lasers point both ways. I can keep them Tagged, but they tend to respond with charged particle injections and charitable donations of relativistic nickel-iron.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 March 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Max Genius, on 10 March 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Do you consider yourself a good LRM boat pilot? If not, then it again supports the point - not skilled with LRMs but able to do close damage with LOS weapons.

Answer me this? Which mech did you die more with - Treb 1 or Treb 2? I guess that you died more in Treb 1 since you actually had to put yourself in danger by engaging the enemy with that loadout. Treb 2 you probably died less in but you still caused similar damage - yes it's less - but still similar damage without being fired on.

like I said... theyd rather ignore the fact that there are counters in the game that negate the advantages of the weapon and instead say youre a "bad". Because that totally invalidates the fact that there are in game counters for those that want to use them.

And as for TAG being useless... Ive started playing a D-DC. I dont seem to be immune to missiles as long as people use TAG

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 11 March 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Void Angel]

Been playing a D-DC. PPCs work swell for allowing target locks, too. I think ECM is still a bit too strong - but not because of LRM locks.

[Max Genius]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 11 March 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

like I said... theyd rather ignore the fact that there are counters in the game that negate the advantages of the weapon and instead say youre a "bad". Because that totally invalidates the fact that there are in game counters for those that want to use them.

And as for TAG being useless... Ive started playing a D-DC. I dont seem to be immune to missiles as long as people use TAG

I don't understand how you're reply is related to what I posted. I was discussing with Mercule about his inconclusive experiment with his 2 trebuchets.

[Max Genius]

Lyrik, on 11 March 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

Indirect fire deals low damage. Direct Artemis fire can destroy your target fairly easy IF they are standing in the open and you have LOS the entire time. But so can a 6PPC Stalker, an Splatcat etc. Damn, even my Jenner will kill you in seconds if you are standing still.

1 missile does low damage =1.8. But an LRM20 does significant damage. 1.8x20 = 36 points of damage. That's more than 2 Gauss rifles. Even if only 75% of 1 salvo hits, thats still 27 points. And LRM boats will have more than just 20 tubes. That's a lot of damage which can be done from cover.

Artemis fire can destroy targets even if they are moving as long as they are in the open, even those that move laterally to you as long as you have missile lock or help from anyone with LOS or Tag. The only mechs that can possibly survive from 2-3 locked LRM salvos are fast moving mechs that move laterally from the missile direction. Only lights and a few mediums can achieve this 100 kph evasion speed. All heavies and assaults will be cored or die from 3 salvos caught in the open.

PPCs and splatcats will not have a guaranteed hit for lateral moving targets unlike locked or tagged Fire and Forget LRMs. Snipers do not have the luxury of a guaranteed hit even on moving assaults from far away.

Honestly, I do accept the reality of what LRMs are today in the game. I try to adjust my gameplay knowing how LRMs are utilized. I just think there's something inherently wrong being able to kill something you don't have to see with as little as 3 salvos. I think that missile spread should be adjusted based on LOS of the shooter. If you don't have it, missile spread is greater. If you have it, it should be the way it is now.

[One Medic Army]

Max Genius, on 12 March 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

1 missile does low damage =1.8. But an LRM20 does significant damage. 1.8x20 = 36 points of damage. That's more than 2 Gauss rifles. Even if only 75% of 1 salvo hits, thats still 27 points. And LRM boats will have more than just 20 tubes. That's a lot of damage which can be done from cover.

Artemis fire can destroy targets even if they are moving as long as they are in the open, even those that move laterally to you as long as you have missile lock or help from anyone with LOS or Tag. The only mechs that can possibly survive from 2-3 locked LRM salvos are fast moving mechs that move laterally from the missile direction. Only lights and a few mediums can achieve this 100 kph evasion speed. All heavies and assaults will be cored or die from 3 salvos caught in the open.

Few things:
Artemis only works if the firing mech has direct line of sight on the target. Spotters don't count.
LRMs aren't fire and forget. The firer must maintain target lock for the duration of missile flight, if he selects a different target or loses lock then the missiles go dumb.
Sure PPCs/Gauss don't track, but they don't have a giant warning message and a slow enough travel time to move behind cover before they hit.

There is zero excuse for being hit by LRMs fired more than 500m or so away. Period. Ever. If you get hit at these distances it's your own fault. Even my atlas can move from one piece of cover to the next in the time it takes for missiles to reach me from that far away.

P.S. If you're killing an assault with 3 salvos, I'm guessing it's at least 60 tubes. An LRM 15 has a cooldown time of 4.25 seconds. 3 Volleys mean that you've managed to not get behind cover in the 8.5 seconds it takes to fire the third volley, plus the travel time of the LRMs (100m/sec).
That's standing in the open for minimum 13.5 seconds at 500m. In that time my PPC cataphract would have unloaded 12 aimed PPC shots, which is 120 point damage. A PPC/gauss based assault mech would have done even worse.

Edited by One Medic Army, 12 March 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[Fooooo]

One Medic Army, on 12 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

If you're killing an assault with 3 salvos, I'm guessing it's at least 60 tubes.

An LRM 15 has a cooldown time of 4.25 seconds.

3 Volleys mean that you've managed to not get behind cover in the 8.5 seconds it takes to fire the third volley, plus the travel time of the LRMs (100m/sec).

That's standing in the open for minimum 13.5 seconds at 500m.

In that time my PPC cataphract would have unloaded 12 aimed PPC shots, which is 120 point damage. A PPC/gauss based assault mech would have done even worse.

When I am in this situation....not in cover, there are other friendlys nearby that are being shot at instead of me....I try not to be the first target they see, otherwise yes, they will smash me with PPC's etc before I can get off enough rounds. (the other team is trying a charge / push on our flank or something etc etc)

Usually they eat 2 / 3 salvos of 4xLRM15's + TAG (no artemis) then die (other players on my team were also hitting them) and I move to the next guy asap. They are really good imo when you use them like this.

This isn't all the time obv, each match is different and my teammates are always different as well, so its never are sure thing I'm always going to be able to do that.

Even then, decent players won't put themselves into that situation if they can help it. A good set of players on the other team makes it much harder for an LRM boat to be useful as they will force me to move open ground with my teammates to get a shot etc etc.


I don't really agree on an LRM nerf so to speak (even tho I may have said something similar to a nerf in another thread somewhere), just a change in the way it all works...


In a way, its like the way I feel about arty in WoT. I don't want them nerfed or removed from the game, I want they way they are played....changed....to something more fun etc...

Edited by Fooooo, 12 March 2013 - 12:55 AM.

[Tikkamasala]

One Medic Army, on 12 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Few things:
Artemis only works if the firing mech has direct line of sight on the target. Spotters don't count.
LRMs aren't fire and forget. The firer must maintain target lock for the duration of missile flight, if he selects a different target or loses lock then the missiles go dumb.

How long will the lrms keep the tighter artemis spread if you lose LoS (btw seeing a tiny bit of the enemy is enough for the artemis effect, unlike LoS required for a meaningful shot with other weapons)? And is this time affected by any of the available modules that can extend the lock time without seeing the enemy quite considerably?

[Furmansky]

Ok I know it’s not to much data since last update but this is my LRM experience

I played 70 matches since told update and there was possibly only two occasions when I was killed by LRM fire, not sure 100% cause I was being pounded with many other weapons at that time as well. I did got hit plenty of times not denying, but AMS together with some good old fashioned evasive maneuvers helped to minimize taken damage (even in an Atlas). I seen thousands of missile wasted as well fired like easy button that just doesn’t work sometimes apparently?

Now to add my experience of using LRM’s till now…

Atlas AS7-K ( BAP - NO MODULES ) 18 Matches / 20 Kills total damage dealt 7.201 ( I know it's not too much )
4 Weapon systems 3 used exclusively on that build since patch so have good comparison

1 X Gauss Rifle - 202 shots fired 135 hits for total damage of 1.874 accuracy 66.83%
2 X ER Large Lasers - 731 shots fired 647 hits for total damage of 3.494 accuracy 88.51%
1 X LRM 15+A 178 salvos of 2670 missiles fired from which only 842 found the target for 1.435 damage accuracy 31.54%
2 X Medium Lasers for close backup dealt 398 damage in total

Basically I think its very good support and situational weapon but definitely not OP
Well played can change the tide of a match but poorly used will be just wasted firepower and a nail to your coffin.
It can be effectively and brilliantly used by a good team to gain a victory, but it can be effectively countered by a good team as well.
It has 4 counters AMS, ECM, Mobility and Cover (yes you have time to react... not like from incoming gauss round for example)
And you can think easy button but you still need to maintain lock nearly till hit, and when it is hot it is not always possible due to many other factors.

So I personally think Long Range Missiles are fine at the moment as they are.

To add finally I have seen other AS7-K Variant on the field other than mine

Edited by Furmansky, 12 March 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[CrushLibs]

LRM = slow 100 meters per sec
LRM = loss of lock unless direct line of sight.
LRM = countered many ways , ecm , ams , cover , 180m min range, loss of LOS
LRM = low hit ratio 20-30% vs lasers 80-90%

want to fix LRMs fix lasers (range) and DHS

Large lasers 600/1200 meters ER= 750/1500
Med Lasers 375/750 meters ER= 450/900
Small Lasers 225/450 meters ER= 275/550

DHS tweak to 1.5x or cannon 1.7x

Med lasers are the most popular and giving LRMs a 730 / 460meter range advantage just doesn't help. 90m on a small is stupid anyways.

LRMs are functioning as should be but lasers are nerfed and need a distance fix. See an LRM cat cut its ears off with a ER Large threat is gone.

[Fut]

Max Genius, on 12 March 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

PPCs and splatcats will not have a guaranteed hit for lateral moving targets unlike locked or tagged Fire and Forget LRMs. Snipers do not have the luxury of a guaranteed hit even on moving assaults from far away.

It's only a guaranteed hit for LRMs if the target ignores the Visual/Audio warning and lets the missiles hit them.
Even if you can't get out of the way of the missile volley, some simple movement in your torso and/or legs is enough to ensure that the damage is spread to more than just one part of your 'Mech.

[Jestun]

"easy to use" "requires no skill".

Always makes me chuckle, the elitists.

Every weapon I have tried so far works the same, point the crosshair at the target and click.

That's how I fire LRMs, that's how I fire lasers, that's how I fire machineguns, that's how I fire everything.

People whining about SSRM / LRM seem to imply they are these mythical weapons which require no lock, no aim, hell perhaps not even a manual fire command...


Here's the difference between a SSRM / LRM and a laser:

LASER
1. Aim
2. Click
3. Maintain aim while laser fires

SSRM / LRM
1. Aim
2. Maintain aim while you get lock
3. Click


WOW! the laser is sooooo much more skillful! How can people manage to use them?!?!!?




:edit:

In fact, lasers maintain aim for 1 sec as that's how long they fire for (less for pulse), SSRM / LRM may need longer than that against a fast mech and/or when turning their own mech.

Edited by Jestun, 12 March 2013 - 09:25 AM.