59 replies to this topic

[Cest7]

Running AMS on a light will kill ~5 missiles on its own, if you're lucky.

2xLRM15=30*1.8=54dmg. Light is running away from LRMs, hit them from behind, only 30 armor on the back?

[LordDante]

standing in the midlle of a rainstorm might get u wet !

if im able to avoid incomming enemy lrm fire in a cn9 u should be able to do that also in ur jenner !

[Peiper]

Lyrik, on 08 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

If you get oneshotted by LRM's in a 152kmph Jenner than you are doing it wrong o.O It can happen if you mess up or don't pay attention or are really unlucky but often???

Mine goes only 150 and I managed to only get killed once by an LRM5 :-P. Yeah the fight zone was a mess, red torso and ignoring the message about incoming fire. My fault.

And hit by 4xLRM15 should kill a Jenner! That are 108 Damage to a light mech with a broad center torso.

Let's compare this situation with what would happen in tabletop, just for the sake of argument, and to show just how wonky and imbalanced this game is becoming...

Lyrik responded to my story of my running around in my Jenner, dodging and weaving in buildings to avoid getting hit by a 4xLRM 15 salvo from a stalker. (I failed.) A similar thing happened to me today in my Raven in caustic valley when I was fighting another Raven and I shut off God Mode (ecm from disrupt to counter) in order to hit him with my streaks. I was running around in the woods with him at one end of the 4 line and something was shooting long range at me from the other end of the 4 line. I SAW the salvos coming in though I was running away and perpendicular from their path, and they turned, like streaks, to hit me anyway and smeared me across the desert.

Let's put this in tabletop perspective: Let's say the missles were fired at long range from a stationary mech to a target moving at 15 hexes. To hit anything, you roll 2 6 sided dice and add them together, (assuming average gunnery skill of 4) and adding modifiers. My mech was 'running' 15 (152kph) in light woods. Normal roll to hit anything long range is 8+ and the target moved 10+hexes which adds +4 to the roll needed. I was behind a layer or two of light woods (lets say at least one hex inside) adding an +1 hit. That means the pilot had to roll a 13 on 2 6 sided dice just to hit me! That's an AUTOMATIC MISS in classic battletech.

The above illustration is for all weapons fired at long range at a target moving 150kph and in light woods, not just missiles, btw.

(In CBT, Artemis allows you to go up '2' on the random missle hit table. An LRM20 with Artemis that hits it's target will hit with 9-20 of it's missles. You'd have to roll a 9 or better to hit with all 20 or 11 without Artemis helping.)

(In CBT, if I had ECM, it would only negate the bonus Artemis had, rather than completely block the missile lock, so you know. In MWO, ECM blocks ALL missile locks unless you use a bandaid like TAG, PPC's, and NARC - yeah right, who can hit with NARC??)

CONCLUSION: Artemis turns LRM's into streaks. It turns them into streaks because ECM has made them so hard to use otherwise that they have to act as streaks to make up for the fact that you can only lock on once in a blue moon. In tabletop a Guardian ECM doesn't block missile locks, or streaks, or targetting of any kind. It only counters other advanced equipment like BAP, C3, Artemis, and NARCs. That's how it should be here too, then everyone who wants to can take ECM because it's no longer broken, it's doing what it is supposed to without being overpowered. Streaks should be made to be 'semi-guided' instead of being able to shoot behind the firing mech who happens to have a targeting decay module. LRMs wouldn't have to be turned into long range streaks because ECM didn't make them.

You guys get it, I know. And yeah, trolls, I know this is not tabletop. But it's supposed to be based as closely as possible to classic Battletech, which has A LOT to teach us about balance. I feel like streaks are handing a man learning to swim water wings so he doesn't have to tread water, then ECM is handing him a rock because it's making it too easy for him to float. Artemis, TAG, PPC's are swim fins and a snorkel to help keep him breathing and on the surface. Problem is the man could float without the water wings, and he never did learn to swim because he has water wings, swim fins, a snorkel and a giant rock in his hands. He's just looking really ********, exhausted, and pissed off as hell because all he wanted was to learn to swim.

[Kunae]

Peiper, on 08 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

<snip>

Nice post, mate.

[Kunae]

ForestGnome, on 08 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

I'm with the rest of the thread, OP doesn't know how to play lights. Lights are meant to be weak, and LRM's are meant to be the most effective weapon in battletech given proper warning/range of an enemy. Be smart, use cover.

<golf-clap>

Yep, way to go making foolish assumptions about someone. Close to 1 million extra Mech XP on Jenners, after mastering them all. Not to mention the other extraneous light mechs.

This is not about LRMs or LRMs with Artemis, in general. This is about the changes made in this last patch, on Tuesday. If you haven't played a non-ECM light since that time, vs enemy LRMs, you don't really have any basis to contradict anything I say.

I like Peiper's SSRM analogy, regarding the current Artemis-LRMs. They've effectively become SLRMs, with a 180m min range.

[ICEFANG13]

How does someone get away from a Raven-3L chasing you down, with LRM-60 also coming in?

In the time it takes for that engagement to start and finish, you'll have trouble getting to cover unless its extremely close? Scout? I don't think so, LRMs will one shot me.

That being said, I also think cover is something so many players have trouble using, but cover isn't always an option as well.

[Fahr]

the real differnce may be the loss of the lagshield... those fast lights were not where the missles thought they were when they got there... with the rollback mechanism, the LRMs are hitting the lights more accurately than they were before. that means that what was once possible to dodge is now going to hit you. but you probably were only able to dodge because of a server-client discrepency.

[Peiper]

Fahr, on 08 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

the real differnce may be the loss of the lagshield... those fast lights were not where the missles thought they were when they got there... with the rollback mechanism, the LRMs are hitting the lights more accurately than they were before. that means that what was once possible to dodge is now going to hit you. but you probably were only able to dodge because of a server-client discrepency.

Let's say this is true. I LIKE the way missles worked before. Speedsters SHOULD be able to dodge stuff. In classic BT, the faster a mech moved and/or jumped, the harder it was to hit. So, the way it was before MAKES SENSE!

[Main Man]

Looking at my stats page I'm hitting about 30% of my LRMs and I use only Artemis.

[FrostCollar]

Guys, you're playing the game wrong. Just always take ECM, dohoho.

I have to agree, LRMs now hit pretty preposterously hard. I've been trying to teach my brother how to play, and his Cataphract gets wiped out by them. My lights do better, but they're still hit quite hard by them except for the 3L and 3M. I really hope this wasn't a misguided way of "balancing" ECM.

[Fiachdubh]

Kunae, on 07 March 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

In their current implementation, LRMs with Artemis can almost guarantee a 1-shot on any non-ECM light mech.

It's becoming very frustrating being just hammered by Artemis LRMs, currently. On a Jenner, I've been effectively 1-shot in many games since the patch,by Artemis-LRMs, with no time or possibility of evasion/escape.

On the other side, I was able to 1-shot a commando, with twin Artemis LRM 15's, + tag, as he was running just slightly off straight towards me, on my Treb-5N. Needless to say, he was a tad annoyed with that.

So that is what happened to me a couple of times today!! I was taking screenshots of my post death damage report screen in case it was a bug or something. It was quite frustrating especially when staying near cover and normally would of escaped with a bit of yellow armour.

[Mauller]

If I am not mistaken, didn't they say that after the weapon tweaks recently they were going to go back and look at the damage? Chances are individual LRM missile damage will be reduced to compensate for tighter spread.

[Liquidx]

Cest7, on 08 March 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Running AMS on a light will kill ~5 missiles on its own, if you're lucky.

2xLRM15=30*1.8=54dmg. Light is running away from LRMs, hit them from behind, only 30 armor on the back?

So my question to this light pilot is then.. why were you so far away from any usable cover that you couldn't move behind something in the 4-5 seconds of missile travel time. Just because you're fast doesn't mean you can run around in the open with impunity. Everyone takes the same damage from missiles, and leaving yourself exposed and in the open will get you killed no matter what mech you're in.

AMS would help if say.. 40% of the missiles made it past the cover you were near. And if it's a stalker boat that's firing 4 lrm 15s at you, then stick close to better cover.

[Liquidx]

Peiper, on 08 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I SAW the salvos coming in though I was running away and perpendicular from their path, and they turned, like streaks, to hit me anyway and smeared me across the desert.

Oh, a table top comparison.. this should be fun.
So the launcher lost lock, and re-gained it once he was able to re-establish line of sight, or get tag data. I don't think you're giving this enough credit. (pilot made his gunnery role)

Also, if you saw the missiles incoming, you should have re-engaged ecm, broken the lock, and changed your angle. (you failed your piloting check)

Peiper, on 08 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Let's put this in tabletop perspective: Let's say the missles were fired at long range from a stationary mech to a target moving at 15 hexes. To hit anything, you roll 2 6 sided dice and add them together, (assuming average gunnery skill of 4) and adding modifiers. My mech was 'running' 15 (152kph) in light woods. Normal roll to hit anything long range is 8+ and the target moved 10+hexes which adds +4 to the roll needed. I was behind a layer or two of light woods (lets say at least one hex inside) adding an +1 hit. That means the pilot had to roll a 13 on 2 6 sided dice just to hit me! That's an AUTOMATIC MISS in classic battletech.

You're completely forgetting the fact that in this game, we all effectively have a C3 master/slave network setup. So to put that in table top perspective, the guy 1000 meters away only had to roll the +to hit range of the raven that was near you. This would likely put you in prime range (no +to hit), and the launcher was likely not moving, so no +to hit from his movement. Terrain likely played very little role between you and the raven. Result - the pilot would need to roll at maybe +3 to hit total from your movement and terrain interference.

Peiper, on 08 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

The above illustration is for all weapons fired at long range at a target moving 150kph and in light woods, not just missiles, btw.

woods/water currently plays little to no role in this game though (I think it has been mentioned that it is being looked at for the future).

Peiper, on 08 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

CONCLUSION: Artemis turns LRM's into streaks.

false.
Artemis only tightens the flight path of lrms - ensuring that more hit, and more hit the same location. The missile behavior you mentioned has nothing to do with artemis, and everything to do with the other pilot regaining his lock on you.

[Liquidx]

Kunae, on 08 March 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

<golf-clap>

Yep, way to go making foolish assumptions about someone. Close to 1 million extra Mech XP on Jenners, after mastering them all. Not to mention the other extraneous light mechs.

This is not about LRMs or LRMs with Artemis, in general. This is about the changes made in this last patch, on Tuesday. If you haven't played a non-ECM light since that time, vs enemy LRMs, you don't really have any basis to contradict anything I say.

I like Peiper's SSRM analogy, regarding the current Artemis-LRMs. They've effectively become SLRMs, with a 180m min range.

I play exclusively without ecm, mostly in heavier mechs, but I have lights as well. Lights are better equipped than any other weight class to deal with LRMs because of their speed.

It's pretty simple really, cover > LRMs.
figure out where the lrms are coming from, and put cover in between. Advanced sensor modules allow locks to remain for ~4 seconds after you duck behind cover, so if you're ducking and weaving and popping in and out of line of sight, the lock doesn't get broken.

Learn to stop behind cover and your problem will go away.

And again.. Artemis does not affect the flight path of LRMs, only the flight pattern.

ICEFANG13, on 08 March 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

How does someone get away from a Raven-3L chasing you down, with LRM-60 also coming in?

In the time it takes for that engagement to start and finish, you'll have trouble getting to cover unless its extremely close? Scout? I don't think so, LRMs will one shot me.

That being said, I also think cover is something so many players have trouble using, but cover isn't always an option as well.

If cover isn't always an option, you're doing it wrong.

[ICEFANG13]

Cover isn't always an option, especially in situations where you have to move.

Ok so, a Raven-3L comes up to you, and starts to engage you on your side of the hill on Caustic, and then LRMs are coming, where do you go? Don't you say that I shouldn't be there, defending the ridge is a fine PUG strategy.

[Liquidx]

ICEFANG13, on 08 March 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Cover isn't always an option, especially in situations where you have to move.

Ok so, a Raven-3L comes up to you, and starts to engage you on your side of the hill on Caustic, and then LRMs are coming, where do you go? Don't you say that I shouldn't be there, defending the ridge is a fine PUG strategy.

Down the hill, behind a bigger friendly mech or other obstacle would have been your best bet in this scenario. But since you were engaged with another enemy at the time and you had no ECM, the LRM guy had a nice spotter. Get rid of the spotter, or hang out near better cover, or get ECM.

The bumps and ridges along the top of the caldera are usually good cover - provided the enemy launching the missiles is on the other side of it. But really, the same thing would have happened to you if you had been hit by 2 gauss (provided clear los) so I don't think the problem here is LRMs.

I agree they should likely have a reduction in damage - but there is a good many things that need to happen before they get nerfed. It can be quite difficult to hold missile lock on someone, especially a light. Having a good spotter, or in this case, having you distracted by being engaged with the raven makes this much easier.

You're effectively talking about a 2v1 situation here.

[T Hawk]

I may be alone with this, but I don't think the WHOLE GAME should focus that hard on LRMs.

The whole "learn to use cover" bull is not covering up the fact that the game in its current state is way too LRM-focused. It shouldn't be like that. You cannot brawl for a bit if theres LRMers on your enemy team, because you always have to think about taking cover.

This is especially true for Lights, it limits my gameplay so much sometimes its no fun.

On the other hand LRMs have to stay a serious threat...so how are you gonna do this?

Edited by T Hawk, 09 March 2013 - 02:11 AM.

[arghmace]

In the heat of battle it's quite hard to tell when you're being shot with Artemis-LRM's or regular LRM's. So it might be that I'm mostly being shot by regulars, who knows. All I know is that I have little trouble evading missiles in a light mech. Just make a sharp turn a second before they're about to hit you and they all miss. If you just run straight, you deserve to die. Best thing is to run straight at the missiles and then dodge 90 degrees to side. No way on earth are missiles gonna hit you, if you time it right. They don't home any better after recend patch, I think. Only their formation is tighter, which actually makes all of them miss a dodging mech instead of a looser formation partly hitting.

Edited by arghmace, 09 March 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[Sturmwind]

Did test this out with 4 LRM 15+Artemis+TAG on an 8R and if the light is slow (talking about the 80-100kph lights!) then - yes: It's a one-shot.

Same happens with still-standing assaults / heavies. It's OP IMO currently - then again - if you stand still and allow yourself to be shot like that - whose fault is that?. However - it will depend on the team if you can overcome such obstacles, or not. Atlas, Stalker? No problem! 1 - 2 barrages usually kill them since the missiles hit them mostly CT, LT, RT.

In PUG matches I will agree that it is quite frustrating and what's worse: New players will probably get really annoyed being blasted into oblivion in most matches now - since a lot of people use that stuff now. After all, it doesn't require any skill to use that stuff - lock on, press button, watch enemy die. Interesting enough, a lot of those playing like that have serious trouble aiming with weapons that do require aim. No saying everyone does, so don't take offense, guys! Not to mention that the LRM "boats" (no or very minimal supportive weapons) are a reliability for your team) go down easily once you're below the LRM minimum range


In serious 8-mans though, I doubt you'll encounter LRMs even now.

I'm not sure what to do about it, but to me it frankly seems as if LRMs and the connected systems are the most worked on weapon in this game so far. Right now, they seem to be somewhat OP to me, too. It's the same road back when their flying arc was too high - same result pretty much.

Edited by Sturmwind, 09 March 2013 - 05:32 AM.