229 replies to this topic

[Rhekin]

the dev is wrong between : light Machin gun and heavy machin gun
example: M60 , PKM minimi ,MG4 , Brent ,Bar etc... = light machin gun
dshk ,50 caliber, Kpv,Zpu-4, Mi-35MKIII Yakushev-Borzov YakB = heavy machin gun

machine gun in the game has the damage of a assault rifle the weight of a heavy
machin gun and range of pistol

Edited by Rhekin, 07 April 2013 - 02:40 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

cerealspiller, on 06 April 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

From personal experience, mounting 4 Machine Guns on my Jagermech-DD has proven very useful. In one game, a Splat-Cat was tearing up our frontlines. By the time it got to me, both of it's arm locations were striped of armor. I took one full volley before I knocked out all the the SRMs from one arm. He gave me a half volley before I knocked out his other arm. And I only used my Machine Guns. Once the Splat-Cat was weaponless, I moved on to more dangerous targets.

And what about those mechs that dont have the TONNAGE to mount another main weapon - like the spider 5K. Just because it works as an assistant weapon on a heavy mech does not make it a viable light ballistic weapon for a 20-30 tonner.

[Terror Teddy]

Gremlich Johns, on 06 April 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Then what you are suggesting is to totally deviate from the Canon use of MGs (which are actually 25mm) and give everybody a no heat penalty to use them because you want it. Frankly, make the things not single MGs, but an array of 4 that fit in one ballistic slot. That will give you the damage you are seeking plus some heat.

Oh come on. I get it that we cannot give the MG the same damage that it had in the boardgame so it is the equivalent of a short range AC/2 but that is the damage it HAD.

Now we have:
-Double Armor
-Boosted Damage to ALL other ballistics

Yet the MG remains at twice boardgame levels of 0,4 DPS while the AC/2 and most of the other guns have a X10 damage per second.

4 DPS of the AC/2 is the equivalent of 20 times the boardgame damage while the MG is at X2 DPS.

And if we went nuts and went directly according to the boardgame then the AC/2 should do less damage than the small laser - a weapon that did 50% more damage than the MG.

That would put the small laser at 0,6DPS if we went by that. What part of the MG is a broken piece of **** equipment don't you get - and this is purely game balance wide since we have no light ballistic weapon for light mechs that are viable without taking up 25-30% of heir entire chassi weigth.

We WILL get arrays - in 18 years game time but until then I want a bloody viable weapon - not an assistant crit seeker where I need some other guys help to even DAMAGE an enemy mech.

[cerealspiller]

ICEFANG13, on 06 April 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Don't forget range. Did you know you could remove all four, and put a Medium Pulse on it, and it could have more range and not need ammo for it?
DPS to ton doesn't really matter, except for light mechs, who really need a MG buff to be more viable (Spider-5K+Cicada-3C+Raven-4X).

You are assuming I can add any weapon to any hardpoint. I already had 2 Medium Lasers. The Machine Guns gave me excellent critical abilities that the lasers did not. When I run Machine Guns on my builds, I always look for open armor and I get criticals every time.

[cerealspiller]

Terror Teddy, on 07 April 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

And what about those mechs that dont have the TONNAGE to mount another main weapon - like the spider 5K. Just because it works as an assistant weapon on a heavy mech does not make it a viable light ballistic weapon for a 20-30 tonner.

That's like saying: The PPC is too difficult to fire. I can never get the timing. Fix the PPC because I have energy hardpoints. Light 'Mechs don't require you to strap in the fastest engine it can carry. My COM-2D is several engine ratings shy of it's max so I can equip the weapons that suite my play style (Not 3 Streak SRM2s). Also, just because a 'Mech has a lot of weapon hardpoints doesn't mean you have to use them all.If I ran a light with Machine Guns, I would stick with the main brawlers and wait and make targets turn around. If I saw open armor, I'd be all over it until I critically knocked out everything in that location. This would reduce it's firepower and allow my brawlers to live longer.

[Mad Porthos]

2000 rounds / 2000 lbs per ton = 1 machine gun bullet and casing w gunpowder is 1 lbs.
.50 cal machine gun = 10 per 1 lbs.
If these mech machine guns are just machine guns "like the .50", then one ton of ammo should be 10000 rounds to give a semblace of reality. versimilitude if you will. If the argument is that each machine gun "shot" is actually like 5 rounds in a huge burst, even though it doesn't seem that way... Well then I suppose 2000 rounds could make sense, cause its 2000 bursts... It just doesn't seem that way.

The problem comes with suspension of disbelief about the damage. Machine guns don't seem to be doing some 5 round burst increments, each staccato Dakka Dakka is rather one projectile as one can see and given the allotment of 2000 rounds per ton, that means a projectile that is the better part of a pound even considering weight of gunpowder/propellant, casing.

That must compare to something in the real world... But hey this is Battletech, and honestly I accept real world doesn't need to come into this in any hyper realistic sense. I can accept that all ballistics in the game are just barely able to pierce armor, and very quickly after being fired slow down enough that they do half or no damage after as little as a few dozen meters (machine guns). Yes, such is the battle tech world.

What I can't get over is those saying the machine gun is a light or support weapon/infantry weapon. It's not. One round is a pound. That's huge. It does compare with something in the real world though, just for reference. Auto cannons. Real 30mm auto cannons. Their rounds weigh about a pound a piece. Several 25mm rounds or 20mm rounds to a pound even, alternate weapons that some have likened Battletech machine guns to.

The problem is, if machine gun ammunition was 10000 rounds per ton, we would only need one ton of ammo even for those rare 4 mg mechs like the 4mg Cicada or the mg Spider,but it seems developers still want the down point of ballistics to be limited ammunition, the possibility of running out of ammunition with no resupply.

Even with 4 machine guns Dakka dakkaing out 10 rounds per second each x 4 machine gun, 40 rounds per second, it would take 4 minutes or so to empty the mech of ammunition. It still could happen in a match. Right now, at 10 rounds per second x4 machine guns = 40 rounds per second / 2000rounds = 50 seconds. So that ton only lasts 50 seconds, more to the liking of stat heads who want ballistics to be ammunition management limited. I can step back and not get too bent out of shape by weird things with range, but this is a bit much of a point where in my inner mech enthusiast get a bit of a break in suspension of disbelief.

Many who spent time in the military could tell you that 2000 rounds of .50 cal ammo is heavy, damn heavy for you and me... But it's still just a few relatively small boxes carrying either belted or loose ammo... No where near what one would expect to make a ton of space, nor supply the machine guns/cannons/whatever we see on mechs with the designation, meant to hurt other mechs.

One can point out the real world has nothing to do with battle tech, and be right, but suspension of disbelief is essential in any work of fiction, be it a novel, a cartoon, a movie. When certain aspects of the game are open to the player's view and do not hold up, such as with machine guns, ammo and weight, then you have a problem that will be pointed out. It has been and will continue to be.

[Rocket2Uranus]

machine guns don't do enough and flamers don't do enough.

Only problem with the lore behind all of this is, PGI doesn't know how to stick with lore and keep the game going. LOL They try to stay within the lore of MechWarrior but they just do w/e they want.

[Rhekin]

current time has a shell arrow uranium or tungsten weighs 8 kg it is normal to think that in the games he developed conventional ammunition with new alloy with a higher drag coefficient and lighter

actualy 25 mm amunation ( sorry for song )


Fire 25 mm ( 0,53 second )

Edited by Rhekin, 08 April 2013 - 01:40 AM.

[Khitull]

The real question is..
If the Urban mech is supposed to be the joke of battletech, how can they justify not being able to go toe to toe with one while using machine guns against it.

[Team Leader]

@Mad Porthos

In the original TT, machine guns only had 150 rounds per ton. 1 ton = 2000 pounds, 2000/150= 13 pounds a round!!!! these definitely aren't 50 cals here.

Edited by Team Leader, 08 April 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Ask the Devs 35


CCQ 3: Why is Machine Gun damage so low?
A: Partly due to the nature of how MGs work in the TT rules, partially due to how we chose to make it useful. When equipping a MG, keep in mind that it is not meant to burn through armor but is very useful for tearing up internals (crits). Bumping MG damage will turn it into a laser that can be kept on with no heat penalty until it runs out of ammo. Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas! We are still investigating balance of the MG but don’t expect any significant increase in damage.

Like the 6 Small Laser Jenner that wreaks the environment? Sorry guys, looks like ~Raven-4X Spider-5K and Cicada-3C are never going to be viable, brought to you by ECM balance team.

Lastly, there are no 6 MG Spiders, seriously?

[Deathlike]

I'm not totally sold on 1 DPS for MGs, but at least "double" of what MGs do now is pretty much "half" the effort they need to put in for a "balance" change.

[Sifright]

Another mg thread that needs to be closed and it's post count and link added to the MG discussion balance thread

This is a post to assist the mods in understanding the breadth of the problem I will be copy pasting this into older machine gun threads that did not recieve mod or dev attention so the feed back can be linked from the new thread.

[Terror Teddy]

cerealspiller, on 07 April 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Also, just because a 'Mech has a lot of weapon hardpoints doesn't mean you have to use them all.If I ran a light with Machine Guns, I would stick with the main brawlers and wait and make targets turn around. If I saw open armor, I'd be all over it until I critically knocked out everything in that location. This would reduce it's firepower and allow my brawlers to live longer.

Use them ALL? have you ever USED a light ballistic mech? If i GIMP the build and take an engine that literally make me horribly slow then i maybe can squeeze in 2 AC2 - leaving 2 emty ballistic points and barely the tonnage for ammo.

The current implementation of MG's makes me almost defenseless against a commando since it has far more firepower at 25 tonnes than a x4 mg spider that MIGHT have a LL and being far slower to be able to fit it. ANY other light mech will have no problem against a MG spider.

The MG's should AT LEAST be a viable self defense weapon against OTHER light mechs and it isn't and that's the main problem - It's not about being able to boat them but have them able to atleast hunt other light mechs with.

[StonedDead]

Hellz no. Machine guns are an anti-infantry weapon, be glad they do anything to a mech at all. I think they should do less.

[TOGSolid]

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. The amount of mechs piling up that are woefully underpowered entirely due to the unavailability of a quality light ballistic weapon is starting to get absurd.

Zekester81, on 13 April 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Hellz no. Machine guns are an anti-infantry weapon, be glad they do anything to a mech at all. I think they should do less.

Except they aren't. They just get a bonus to killing infantry which leads people to erroneously believe they're anti-infantry only. Regardless, your argument is completely faulty because there are no infantry in MWO so why would you want to keep a weapon ****** to fight an enemy that doesn't even exist?

Quote

They try to stay within the lore of MechWarrior but they just do w/e they want.

The joke being that machine guns have always been viable weapons in Mechwarrior. MWO is the first Mechwarrior games where MGs are completely useless.

Edited by TOGSolid, 13 April 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Bobzilla]

Meh, introduce a new weapon, or add more dmg and heat to the mg, or leave it like it is and realize some chasis just suck more than others. There maybe be a change if everyone felt the same, but people are too divided so pgi wont be thinkin about this twice as they are happy with it now.

[TOGSolid]

Bobzilla, on 13 April 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Meh, introduce a new weapon, or add more dmg and heat to the mg, or leave it like it is and realize some chasis just suck more than others. There maybe be a change if everyone felt the same, but people are too divided so pgi wont be thinkin about this twice as they are happy with it now.

I don't think the people who think MGs needing a buff winning by 75% right now counts as "divided." The only people who don't agree are arguing that "lulz their anti infuntree weponz."

[Team Leader]

Zekester81, on 13 April 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Hellz no. Machine guns are an anti-infantry weapon, be glad they do anything to a mech at all. I think they should do less.

Hi, you must be illiterate. Please, let me show you the door.

TOGSolid, on 13 April 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

I don't think the people who think MGs needing a buff winning by 75% right now counts as "divided." The only people who don't agree are arguing that "lulz their anti infuntree weponz."

Yes. Thank you.

[ArmageddonKnight]

I dont think its as simple as buffing MG's.

The problem being the next ballistic weapon above MG's is the Ac2 ..which is underused as is becouse its so damn heavy for such a low alpha strike damage , and the ROF is usless when it causes so much heat...atleast when ur packing more than 3.

if MG's were to be buffed, they would have to still be much much worse than AC2's or AC2's would have to be buffed in terms of weight and/or HPS.

maybe if each mech weight class used different armor plating that was more effective the heavier it got then u could make MG's do bonus damage to light mech armor, making them effectivly anti light mech (instead of anti invantry) ..but ofc i can alreayd hear the crying ..yes that would make light mechs very vulnerable to larger mechs and big weapons. A change thatis highly unlikely to ever happen as it would have to have been done prior to open beta so it was the 'norm' .

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 14 April 2013 - 10:26 AM.