188 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Teralitha, on 08 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I already have offered my expertise for consultation on balance issues a few times. They ignore me like they do everyone else. Damn shame, with my help, this game could have been 100 times better.

Ok, your right. If they listened to ALL the self proclaimed "experts" in here, things would be way better.

One likely issue would be to get ALL of those self proclaimed "experts" to agree on any one thing.

You fix that, and many would back you all the way to the PGI front office good sir for achieving that would indeed be true genius. I wish you luck as a more likely outcome would be you telling ALL the other self proclaimed "experts" to shut up as they do not agree that yours is the only "proper" opinion.

Sort of like now..

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 March 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

At this point I don't care if they did what we asked.

I just want confirmation that they are listening and perhaps some well thought out responses.

Which is why I continue to ask for the ECM Command Chair that was promised a month ago.

The devs could really do a lot by just giving their position instead of waffling and changing another item every patch to try and balance ECM.

[Mystere]

Ahem. I think you quoted the wrong thing. In what you quoted, I was talking about the validity of polls. Your reply is talking about game balance.

Mystere, on 08 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Actually, the poll in question (and any poll in this forum for that matter) is not really valid because it is based solely on the views of people who bothered to respond.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 March 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I don't think you really understand what you said here. I'm at work and really don't have the time to explain why this is wrong in any meaningful manner. But it is wrong.

I've never been a developer. But I've been doing Beta's for 15 years.

And the ones that have gone the best involve the Dev's communicating constantly (not done here) and the thought process on item balance that works best is "If an item is not balanced by itself, the item itself needs to be tuned".

Not "If Orb of Suffering isn't balanced, let me go add the Orb of Other Kinds of Suffering, change the Orb of Awesome, and adjust the Orb of Jimmy Rustlin' to try and fix it".

Everquest made a mistake like this. With regards to tanking and taunt. Instead of fixing how hate was generated, they kept adding new proc effects and items. But it would fix one tanking class, but not the other two, because the underlying mechanics were still broken.

Edited by Mystere, 08 March 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[wwiiogre]

I have for tabletop miniatures. And I also have sent advice to PGI, and once in awhile I even got responses like, thanks for the message. Etc. So I know they read pm's sent. Not sure if they havn't thought of all this before any of us suggested it. But with programming there is a lead time for implementation. So since ECM is already in, its easier for them to tweak code already in game than it is for them to rewrite code. Even when something is so out of balance.

I hope and sometimes even pray they will rewrite ECM and Missiles completely since they appear to be the most broken part of the game at the moment. Missiles should not be fired like a ballistic weapon and home on center mass. This makes them overpowered when they hit. Because they cluster in a very narrow area sometimes only a single hit box. Which does not spread the damage around enough. This means ssrm, srm and lrm can unbalance the game when boating is used. Which boating will always be used since PGI has allowed this with the hard point system.

So you allow players to overload a mech with a specific weapon system, the system is not balanced and when taken in large numbers immediately breaks the balance of the game. How do we know its not balanced because it is being used repeatedly for the advantage it gives. With the new stat break downs I can look at my own numbers and see a huge difference between a standard loadout and a boat loadout for damage, for kdr, etc, etc.

Those numbers can be seen by PGI, why is it taking so long to figure out that certain aspects of the game need a reboot. ECM, missiles.

Yet somethings PGI has gotten almost perfect. Heat management at this point seems to be just about right. So once again I must ask, why did PGI feel they needed to throw a monkey wrench in the heat system works by adding a Magic Power Up button for coolant flush that is not part of the BT/Lore? It simply is not needed, whatsoever. Makes no sense. Where is the magic coolant coming from? Why does it not weigh something since tons of hot coolant is being flushed. Where is the magic coolant coming from. Talk about immersion breaking for a simulation of mech combat. Since that is what MWO is, a simulation. Hence the reason we sit in the cockpit and not have 3rd person view.

Hopefully, given enough time, PGI will reread the promises it made to the community and go back to those ideals that we the founders bought into. I know had I known there would be magic coolant power up buttons I would not have wasted $120. Because I would not have invested my money into a new copy of MW4.

But, I will continue to give PGI time and send them pm's with my thoughts. I never expect a response from them when I send them ideas. I hope that they will understand they are currently walking on dangerous ground. They are eliminating role warfare completely with consumables and unbalancing the game by giving free powerups for MC/Cbills.

Chris

[Shadowsword8]

Mystere, on 08 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Actually, the poll in question (and any poll in this forum for that matter) is not really valid because it is based solely on the views of people who bothered to respond.

You don't see a losing presidential canditate claim the poll result is invalid because it's based only on those who bothered to vote. Why? Because they're smart enough to avoid that argument.

Quote

Haven't you seen any of those news channels whose poll results are obtained by making responders press specific buttons on their cable remotes? Pay closer attention to the disclaimers they give regarding the validity of the poll results. There is a very good reason why they make such disclaimers.

I don't live in the US. But whatever over-cautious disclaimer they put in your country (whose population is very fond of suing left, right and center), it doesn't change the mechanics statistical analysis is build upon. When you have a sample of 500+, and that this sample is favoring one result over the other with a 15-30% margin (I'll go throught the pain of finding that poll later, I'm at work right now), the odds of the having a poll favoring the other result if the sample was equal to the total population is very, very small. I forgot how you do the math to compute variance, but the result would be like, less than 1%.

[Jabilo]

ECM is fine.

It is the perfect storm combination of streaks, speed and ECM on the 3L and 2D that is the problem.

If anything, the item in the list that is the most problematic is streaks not ECM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mystere, on 08 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Ahem. I think you quoted the wrong thing. In what you quoted, I was talking about the validity of polls. Your reply is talking about game balance.

The first line replies to the poll quote. I don't have time to really give a proper lengthy reponse (it would be big and would require me actually quoting sources and linking various things).

I did have time to respond to the game balance part of things though.

[Tarnath]

L2P!
Learn to Play!
Change YOUR tactics!

I have several mechs I play. One is an Atlas D-DC with ECM. I probably have more deaths with him than on most of my mechs. ECM DOES NOT make you invincible! Just a slight added protection from SSRMs and LRMs. Having a problem locking SSRMs on to an ECM mech? Get more than 180m away! Use TAG to help your LRM buddies! Use direct fire weapons! There are more direct fire weapons than anything else in this game. Use PPCs to temporarily disable the ECM capability. Here is a secret: Raven 3L circling your PPC stalker? Have a chain fire group of PPCs, hit him once, no matter the range, and his ECM is down! Oh, and you have SRM4-6 or SSRM2 because it would be DUMB to set yourself with ONLY 90-540m weapons!

I am so sick of these "ECM is broken" threads. Tactics. I pug or group with 1 friend only. We play almost every night. See an ECM? Target it, call out to your friends its location, and blow it away. PPCs, Lasers, ACs, Gauss, all unaffected by ECM.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you die. Its just a freaking game.
Go QQ somewhere else.

Edited by Tarnath, 08 March 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Actually 1k or less are used for most of those presidential polls. Because they are only polling based on electoral college votes and district sizes. They also know ahead of time which places tend to go democratic or republican.

My father in law ran for sentate, so I had to learn a lot about these things.

A 1k poll is more than enough to get a sample from a game of this size and scope.

Which Poll in here got 1k votes?

[Stone Profit]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Can we show some maturity? Teralitha posts well thought out replies. If you disagree, that's fine. But that just shows an inability to logically debate your point.

Actually 8t is a well thought out satirical post. Im demonstrating that she continues to whi e even though there is no problem for a good player. I get that you may not understand that but it does not show im immature only that I am able to convey an idea without needing to write a full paragraph.

[Ghogiel]

MaddMaxx, on 08 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Which Poll in here got 1k votes?

The one that shows more than half the people who voted in it don't care about ECM or think that it has improved the game.

[Thuzel]

MaddMaxx, on 08 March 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

And after reading that, well written piece btw, I can only comment by saying that over the past month, month and a half, I am seeing and playing off against a level of mixed weapons and Mechs way more diverse that was ever assembled previously. Now I am not sure why that is, bit I have to assume it not due to some increase in OP items. In fact, it would seem to point to a better balanced mix over-all.

There is one thing this Forum shows us over and over, if there is Cheese to be had, Cheese will stink the joint up bad. Other than the Ravel-3L (hit box issue imho, not ECM +Strks) and the added pain LRM's just got, things are not to bad in MWO land.

But no worries. I am but a whisper against the Gales of Woe and Strife that blow constantly around these parts and am enjoying MWO for what is currently is. Not something is yet to become.

Thanks!

I don't want to give the wrong impression, I'm not doom and gloom. I think MWO has a future, and the worst case scenario is that it just gets watered down into a sim-fps.

I agree with you that I've started seeing a little more variation on the field as of late, but only just a little. The vast majority of the time it's still the same old "stand-off then everyone brawl" with only the most recent addition of stealth mechs with ECM. My main concern is that this isn't going to greatly change until we start seeing better designed balancing concepts in conjunction with larger maps and teams, with well thought-out balance being vital. Otherwise we'll just see more boating and over-emphasis on specific items and play styles (e.g. raven packs).

Among skilled players most of the time, boating and homogeneous play are really just symptoms of the above.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ghogiel, on 08 March 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

The one that shows more than half the people who voted in it don't care about ECM or think that it has improved the game.

Not caring about ECM and thinking it improved the game are not the same thing. I'm going to lunch or I'd go find and link to it.

[MaddMaxx]

Ghogiel, on 08 March 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

The one that shows more than half the people who voted in it don't care about ECM or think that it has improved the game.

Hmmm, perhaps when I first found it it was newer... Will have to check on that one again.

I thought "everyone" still hated ECM.

[Apnu]

Teralitha, on 08 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I already have offered my expertise for consultation on balance issues a few times. They ignore me like they do everyone else. Damn shame, with my help, this game could have been 100 times better.

Apply for a job then: http://piranhagames.com/Careers.html

[WassonG]

I think all it boils down to is that ECM plays far to large a role.

There's a reason why WoT recently heavily nerfed the Artillery in there game...because they started to realize that there overpowering presence was detrimental to the core gameplay of there game - tank vs tank combat.

ECM...with how it's implemented currently (well, pretty much since it was first introduced) I feel remains detrimental to the core mech v mech gameplay of MWO. It makes gameplay confusing and unfair for those under its effects and exploitative for those using it...and there is no player input into how effective it works, you just equip it and it works perfectly. It doesn't fail, make mistakes or anything...as opposed to the Radar systems of the mechs, cannot pierce buildings, take time to acquire locks and target information. Why is the basic sensor equipment on the mechs so hamstrung by this once piece of equipment? where is the justification? Why doesn't it interfere with enemy sensors and guided munitions as well?

I think there is a lot about it that doesn't really add-up even when maintaining the most objectivity I can.

[DarkBazerker]

I don't care either way, ECM can go or stay. I do remember before ECM it was all about lrm and streaks but even then on average there were only two missle boats per match.

I also want to point out somthing esle. If your one of those jumping on the banwagon about ecm, coolant or what ever, or if your thinking "just fix ecm so poeple will stop crying", I want you to understand somthing. In every single online multiplayer game with some hint of shooting with a winning and losing side, there will be a ton of people crying and complaining and pointing fingers. Just cause somone points there fingers at anything doesn't mean they have a legit reason to. 8 out of 10 times people complain about somthing in a game cause they lost a game at one point and they want to get back at somone.

[Apnu]

I don't see how ECM is broken. Its works pretty close to the TT rules. http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite Its supposed to affect Artemus, C3 and C3i, NARC and BAP. In MWO it does all those things. What's happened is PGI gave everybody a C3 network and that's the issue. And that C3 network is being affected by ECM as per the TT rules.

You can't get normal missile locks when effected by ECM and you can't, personally, detect mechs under its bubble. You should be able to fire your missiles (with out dummy fire) and detect mechs under the ECM bubble besides pure visual detection on the pilot's part.

To fix that, I'd say this. Let the pilot see and lock on mechs under ECM (of course mess up Artemus, NARC and BAP), but don't share that info with the pilot's team. If you want, maybe lessen the number of missiles that hit from a LRM lock to show its affect but LRMs are easy enough to avoid (I do it in my AS7-D all the time) so I don't think that's necessary.

But from where I play and who I play with, we've just adapted to ECM as it is and work with it and around it. What else are we gonna do? The only time its a real PTA is in 8v8 drops that are nothing but ECM packing mechs, or PUG teams that have a overload 4+ of ECM. Those instances are actually rare. We use ECM but usually have no more than 50% of our mechs with it.

We're more annoyed by the Matchmaker putting our team at a tonnage disadvantage. We dropped two nights ago with two lights, 4 mediums, 2 heavies against 4 assaults, 2 heavies and 2 lights. Now that's a problem. If I knew I was gonna face that much tonnage, I would have brought something else.

[Mystere]

Are you both (Nicholas and Shadowsword8) telling me that a "voluntary" poll (i.e. one in which results are determined solely by people who choose to participate) is not much worse than the real thing?

If so, I apologize beforehand, but, I will have to respond in a way that I normally do in such circumstances: Please show me the math.

A link or set of links should be enough top get me started.

[Skaroth]

Shadowpunisher, on 07 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

How I know majority of players are unhappy with it ? Last poll I saw said it.

I don't have any problems to play against it, but it's not fun at all. And when I'm using a Raven 3L or a DDC I feel dirty, its too easy.
It's a GAME it should be fun to play against each others.

You make the assumption that most players of this game are on the forum and voted in the poll.

That and... I thought you said you had resigned from complaining... yet here you continue...