20 replies to this topic

[FerretWithASpork]

Efficiencies as they currently stand are the largest balance issue in the game. The basic fact that with 1 upgrade I can get a 25% boost to a stat is outrageous. To make matters worse if someone unlocks the Elite efficiencies it doubles those, so a 50% boost to some stats. This is a MASSIVE advantage over someone with equal skill.

Modules are already upgradeable in stages. You can unlock the first stage of something, and then the second. Clearly the code is already there for this... so why is it not taken advantage of for efficiencies?

One counter argument to this is that unlocking all the basic efficiencies is pretty quick. This is true, however it's not a valid system. The unlocks should be in incremental stages of 2-5%.. and they should go as high as 25% IMO.

The doubling, and quadrupling of efficiencies needs to go. This system is simply BROKEN and leads to a massive unbalance. Sure, you can argue that matchmaking is supposed to even this out, but it doesn't... and even as it gets more and more implemented I'm sure there will still be times when people slip through with full efficiencies for a mech. Not to mention starting from scratch with a new mech is a TERRIBLE experience if you're already in the high ELO matches.

There's currently 2 mechs that I have 25k+ XP stored up on, and I'm sure this is a pretty small amount compared to others who play more. The system in it's current iteration leads to massive amounts of unusable XP being stored up. This is a very unfun system.

Please look at completely redoing the efficiency system before implementing a new system such as consumables that would break balance.

[Royalewithcheese]

Can't tell if seriouspost or parody of heatsink thread.

[FerretWithASpork]

Royalewithcheese, on 08 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Can't tell if seriouspost or parody of heatsink thread.

seriouspost... what's the heatsink thread? I must find this...

[Eibon Cykranosh]

I actually agree with this, to some extent.

The problem I see is that players who invest a lot of time into this game are rewarded with parts that make them stupidly superior to anyone running stock builds, or slightly modified stock builds.

Efficiencies is one area, due to the stupid way you unlock elite (get basics on 3 of the same variant? Good thing all the variants are useful, right? Right?). If it were easier to move straight into elite efficiencies, and then double your basics, it wouldn't be such a problem. But right now, if you have someone who invests a lot of time with a really good Jenner/Raven/Catapult/Whatever, they can run circles (literally) around players who just pop in for a few rounds a day.

The other area is engines: the differences between an XL engine and a normal engine (especially on light mechs) is, quite frankly, ********. You look at the description for the stock Jenner, and it's supposedly one of the fastest light mechs while still retaining good firepower. In practice, you have maxed out Ravens and Commandos running around you, Cataphracts and Centurions keeping up with you, and even the heavy Catapults can give you a good run for your money. Once you save up around 4 - 5 MILLION C-Bills for an XL engine, then you can begin to compete as a real light mech, because you're finally fast enough to evade people. Not sure how the engine difference translates for heavy and assault mechs, but the difference on light mechs is moronic.

Overall, this entire game feels grind to win. They give you a bit of extra C-Bills upfront with the Cadet Bonus without really explaining what's what, so it's easy to waste it on stupid things that you wind up selling or regretting. They desperately need balance the upgrades for the mechs (DHS, FFA, ESS, XLE) to be sidegrades, not straight up better choices. They need to make it so unlocking basics on one mech let's you at least start elites, and get rid of this idea you need to use different variants (which are often worse) to fully unlock elites.

[Renthrak]

FerretWithASpork, on 08 March 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

The system in it's current iteration leads to massive amounts of unusable XP being stored up.

This is really the only part that I can fully agree with. While I don't have a specific solution in mind, it would be nice to have some use for the accumulated XP on a 'Mech that doesn't involve spending real money to convert to GXP.

[FerretWithASpork]

Dvalinn, on 08 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Overall, this entire game feels grind to win. They give you a bit of extra C-Bills upfront with the Cadet Bonus without really explaining what's what, so it's easy to waste it on stupid things that you wind up selling or regretting. They desperately need balance the upgrades for the mechs (DHS, FFA, ESS, XLE) to be sidegrades, not straight up better choices. They need to make it so unlocking basics on one mech let's you at least start elites, and get rid of this idea you need to use different variants (which are often worse) to fully unlock elites.

I can agree with most of what you're saying but I'd like to keep this discussion relevant to the efficiencies..

I think the best system would be to increase the cost of all of the efficiencies... quite a bit. I think the basics should be broken up in to 3 stages that all add up to no more than a 15% boost per stat. (Base stats should be buffed to compensate). When you get all of them you can unlock the Elite efficiencies. The cost for these should be about 10k each and they should be 2 stage. Once you get all Elite efficiencies you maybe you unlock the ability to unlock 2 more stages for each basic efficiency.. This encourages progression in a way that rewards long term play. The economical downside being it discourages people from buying new mechs. This is the reason why the compmany won't do it.. I can't really think of a way to properly implement this which encourages people to buy more mechs.

Because this mechanic shouldn't. This should be your retention mechanic. This encourages people to commit to not only a mech but to the game. This is the "achievement" system that will get people hooked. This DOES however encourage people to buy cockpit and mech customization. This gives people a sense of ownership on their mech.

[kiltymonroe]

FerretWithASpork, on 08 March 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

The basic fact that with 1 upgrade I can get a 25% boost to a stat is outrageous. To make matters worse if someone unlocks the Elite efficiencies it doubles those, so a 50% boost to some stats. This is a MASSIVE advantage over someone with equal skill.

DECELERATION RATE IS OP. Maximum pubbie in this thread folks.

[FerretWithASpork]

kiltymonroe, on 08 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

DECELERATION RATE IS OP. Maximum pubbie in this thread folks.

Thank you, that was very constructive. Really appreciate your input.

To attempt to decrypt your trolling.. Are you stating that it pretty much doesn't matter in the competitive scene? I haven't played MWO competitively but I have played other games competitively. I understand the separation in play, but also understand that the main playerbase and main source of income IS the pub players. Also if the current implementation of the system is negligable in competitive gaming it would be because comp players play so much to practice that they easily unlock the efficiencies and everyone has them in comp and it makes no difference... Which is absolutely no different for the system I'm suggesting. But it increases retention of pub players.. Win-Win for company and players (pub and comp) as I see it.

[Ironspectre]

I sorry but I can't agree with this thread. The effciencies are probabily more balance then you believe just on the fact that they don't change from mech to mech or pilot to pilot. It is a representation of your "pilot" becoming more skilled. I have played many games some being mmo's where the skills of the class are grown through the skill tree much like the mech tre in MWO. IGP could have made it mech tree even more specialized, glad they didn't, I don't want to be a pilot who went down a balance set of effencies meeting up with some sort of damage specialist. The effencies don't change the way a pilot thinks tactically. They still will core you if you not aware of who might be flanking you.
Hell, you have more then likely cored a pilot who has mastered their mech and has gotten those nice Modules in a mech you just bought.

[Deathlike]

In many ways, the op is kinda right. You are very dependent on the basic inefficiencies... and it only gets better doubling them. The mech feels crippled until you get them and doubled. However, the elite efficiencies outside of speed tweak (particularly for light mechs) don't actually contribute that much (speeding up powerups/shutdowns, slightly improved cooldown, and the improved convergence doesn't have the same effect for the most part).

It would make more sense to have the current basic efficiencies increase by 33% (or ideally by 50%) more effective, and getting all the elite efficiencies would increase the basic efficiencies by an additional 50% (the numbers come out the same, assuming you're not using my ideal modifier).

Edited by Deathlike, 09 March 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[FerretWithASpork]

Ironspectre, on 09 March 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

I sorry but I can't agree with this thread. The effciencies are probabily more balance then you believe just on the fact that they don't change from mech to mech or pilot to pilot. It is a representation of your "pilot" becoming more skilled. I have played many games some being mmo's where the skills of the class are grown through the skill tree much like the mech tre in MWO. IGP could have made it mech tree even more specialized, glad they didn't, I don't want to be a pilot who went down a balance set of effencies meeting up with some sort of damage specialist. The effencies don't change the way a pilot thinks tactically. They still will core you if you not aware of who might be flanking you.
Hell, you have more then likely cored a pilot who has mastered their mech and has gotten those nice Modules in a mech you just bought.

Apparently I didn't present my argument well. I'm not saying that efficiencies are bad. I like the system.. I just hate the implementation. They shouldn't be a 25% boost for 1500, it should be a 3 step process where the first upgrade costs 1000 and gives you +5%, the second costs 1500 and gives you +15% and the last costs 2500 and gives you +25%. Everything would still be there, it would just take longer to get everything and make you work more for it.

[Ironspectre]

FerretWithASpork, on 09 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Apparently I didn't present my argument well. I'm not saying that efficiencies are bad. I like the system.. I just hate the implementation. They shouldn't be a 25% boost for 1500, it should be a 3 step process where the first upgrade costs 1000 and gives you +5%, the second costs 1500 and gives you +15% and the last costs 2500 and gives you +25%. Everything would still be there, it would just take longer to get everything and make you work more for it.

OK yea i can see that, breaking up in to ranks i guess? like adv. sensors in the pilot tree...

[Xandralkus]

Efficiencies should be nerfed HARD. The devs got the balancing right during closed beta - 2-5% buffs to stats.

PLAYERS DO NOT DESERVE AN ADVANTAGE JUST BECAUSE THEY GRIND. C-bills and XP should have ZERO tangible impact on the outcome of a fight, unless the two players are -that- evenly matched. Then we need a tiebreaker, and then (and only then) is progression an acceptable tiebreaker.

[kiltymonroe]

FerretWithASpork, on 08 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Thank you, that was very constructive. Really appreciate your input.

To attempt to decrypt your trolling.. Are you stating that it pretty much doesn't matter in the competitive scene? I haven't played MWO competitively but I have played other games competitively. I understand the separation in play, but also understand that the main playerbase and main source of income IS the pub players. Also if the current implementation of the system is negligable in competitive gaming it would be because comp players play so much to practice that they easily unlock the efficiencies and everyone has them in comp and it makes no difference... Which is absolutely no different for the system I'm suggesting. But it increases retention of pub players.. Win-Win for company and players (pub and comp) as I see it.

I'm calling you out on complaining about how horribly imbalanced the pilot lab is for being able to give a 25% boost to "a stat"...giving no mention that the only such stat getting that much of a boost is literally the most insignificant stat you could meaningfully buff. Going from a 1-second dead stop to a 0.8 second dead stop, so terribly OP! Nerf it to a 0.96 second stop!

Quadruple efficiencies are also broken, so that's not why you're losing either.

[Cyke]

I believe the intention is to further differentiate players in a sort of roleplaying sense. It takes a lot of time and effort to even get Elite efficiencies on a chassis but it does seem to have an intention beyond making us grind like crazy.
In-universe, 'Mechs would have all sorts of nuances and quirks to their physical handling that can't be simulated in-game with the simple control scheme, so it's meant to simulate our fictional in-game alter-egos' familiarity with a type of 'Mech.

As a casual player myself, I understand your argument that it takes a great deal of time to get even to Elite with a chassis, but among other casual players, I can (for example) identify myself as a Cataphract pilot. Sure, I can climb into any 'Mech and pilot it passably, but I'm a Cataphract pilot first, and eventually (if I go that path) will be a Heavy 'Mech specialist.

The detrimental effect of this system is that it limits the flexibility of choice to casual players like ourselves. Until I at least max out Elite tier for this chassis, I'm missing out on a lot of the game experience (piloting other weight classes, for example).

[FerretWithASpork]

Cyke, on 10 March 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

I believe the intention is to further differentiate players in a sort of roleplaying sense. It takes a lot of time and effort to even get Elite efficiencies on a chassis but it does seem to have an intention beyond making us grind like crazy.
In-universe, 'Mechs would have all sorts of nuances and quirks to their physical handling that can't be simulated in-game with the simple control scheme, so it's meant to simulate our fictional in-game alter-egos' familiarity with a type of 'Mech.

As a casual player myself, I understand your argument that it takes a great deal of time to get even to Elite with a chassis, but among other casual players, I can (for example) identify myself as a Cataphract pilot. Sure, I can climb into any 'Mech and pilot it passably, but I'm a Cataphract pilot first, and eventually (if I go that path) will be a Heavy 'Mech specialist.

The detrimental effect of this system is that it limits the flexibility of choice to casual players like ourselves. Until I at least max out Elite tier for this chassis, I'm missing out on a lot of the game experience (piloting other weight classes, for example).

Thank you for your input and sorry to be blunt but that's very ****** reasoning for this feature.

This isn't the tabletop game.. This isn't an RPG.. this is a first person SKILL BASED shooter. They need to keep that in mind over any sort of canon. Make the game FUN. The current implementation isn't fun. I'm completely okay with the system.. but as everyone else is complaining about don't make me buy 2 variants that I don't give a **** about just to advance with my favourite. And just to side with your explanation for a moment.. How would I reach a peak in my driving abilities after all the basic efficiencies that I wouldn't get past until I peak on 2 other variants?

I drive a 2009 Hyundai sonata. Clearly if I want to be a better driver of my vehicle I should buy a 2008 Hyundai sonata and a 2010 Hyunsai sonata just so that I can be better at driving my 2009? No.. that's not how experience works. Experience shoudl reward you for playing the same mech, not 3 different types of the same mech.

Edited by FerretWithASpork, 10 March 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

FerretWithASpork, on 08 March 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Efficiencies as they currently stand are the largest balance issue in the game. The basic fact that with 1 upgrade I can get a 25% boost to a stat is outrageous. To make matters worse if someone unlocks the Elite efficiencies it doubles those, so a 50% boost to some stats. This is a MASSIVE advantage over someone with equal skill.

Modules are already upgradeable in stages. You can unlock the first stage of something, and then the second. Clearly the code is already there for this... so why is it not taken advantage of for efficiencies?

One counter argument to this is that unlocking all the basic efficiencies is pretty quick. This is true, however it's not a valid system. The unlocks should be in incremental stages of 2-5%.. and they should go as high as 25% IMO.

The doubling, and quadrupling of efficiencies needs to go. This system is simply BROKEN and leads to a massive unbalance. Sure, you can argue that matchmaking is supposed to even this out, but it doesn't... and even as it gets more and more implemented I'm sure there will still be times when people slip through with full efficiencies for a mech. Not to mention starting from scratch with a new mech is a TERRIBLE experience if you're already in the high ELO matches.

There's currently 2 mechs that I have 25k+ XP stored up on, and I'm sure this is a pretty small amount compared to others who play more. The system in it's current iteration leads to massive amounts of unusable XP being stored up. This is a very unfun system.

Please look at completely redoing the efficiency system before implementing a new system such as consumables that would break balance.

I'm not sure I get the problem, other than you just don't like it. Please state your problems in the op, so everyone can follow your train of thought. I too don't like it, mostly because it does not represent a typical skill tree model. However, that's not a valid reason to change it. I too have a lot of XP left over on some, this is perhaps why the devs feel consumables will be favorable.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 March 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[FerretWithASpork]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm not sure I get the problem, other than you just don't like it.

I don't dislike the idea.. I dislike the implementation... Being able to get a 10-25% bonus is way too big, and when you get the Elite and that doubles? 20-50%? And I believe it quadruples with the module slot? so 40-100% increase? The boosts are way too big, and the system of having to buy 3 variants is broken.

[Sable Dove]

Keep it exactly as it is, and just add a system to account for mech efficiencies in matchmaking. Say, add half a (virtual) ton for every basic efficiency, and a ton for every Elite efficiency, meaning a mech with all Elite efficiencies is considered 8 tons heavier for the purposes of matchmaking. If modules ever become significant, Mastering could add 2 tons to make it an even 10.

Or simply match mechs based on what tier of efficiencies they have so that mastered mechs rarely, if ever, face mechs with only a couple basic efficiencies.

This also makes it more fun for new players, who often get stomped in their first games because they have ****** trial mechs with no efficiencies, while everyone else has min/maxed, mastered mechs.

[Targetloc]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

In many ways, the op is kinda right. You are very dependent on the basic inefficiencies... and it only gets better doubling them. The mech feels crippled until you get them and doubled. However, the elite efficiencies outside of speed tweak (particularly for light mechs) don't actually contribute that much (speeding up powerups/shutdowns, slightly improved cooldown, and the improved convergence doesn't have the same effect for the most part).

True story.

Cool run, heat capacity and anchor turn are especially noticeable when you don't have them. Completely agree with the feeling of a new mech being crippled until you can unlock a few of the basics on it. Another hard knock for the new player experience.

It also makes a pretty significant difference in what builds are effective on your mech. When I was modelling DPS output versus max damage before heat cap it's a huge difference with Heat Capacity and Cool Run elited.