45 replies to this topic

[SuomiWarder]

Ok, get your tar and feathers ready for after I'm done here. But here I go.

Premise: Combat is "too short", PGI and some players want to increase Mech survivability.

Premise: Massive changes of armor or weapon values is not where we want to go.

Premise: Some builds (mainly various types of "boats") allow the user to score kills "too easily".

Premise: Random chance to hit rolls, variable damage, and removing all skill from scoring hits are things that are off the table as far as changes go.

Hypothesis: Bring in a modified version of the targeting circle seen in some shooter games. The tye that shows a circle where the shot will hit around the aim point that often gets bigger on the move and smaller when stopped. Yes, this was discussed in closed beta (though not tried).
The modificiation I am suggesting is that the circle grows smaller over time until with many weapons it is not much bigger that the aim point. It never becomes pin point although inside 50 meters range you will be sure of hitting a major body part aimed at. The size of the aim circle and the rate it shrinks depends on the weapon.
In practice I am thinking that you hold the trigger of the weapon group down and then the target computers of your mech start aligning the weapons of the group to converge at the range of whatever is under the center crosshair. Let go and you shoot. Thus you can take extra time for precise aim or blaze away as fast as the weapon recycle rate allows.
Movement and maybe items like the number of weapons in the group or upgraded computer modules (and Clan targeting computers) affect how fast the circle tightens and perhaps how tight it can get.
My assumption is that the rate of fire will slow down as people look to place their hits, and in fast and furious brawls just scoring any hit as fast as you can will often be advantagous over waiting extra long for the best hit.

Estimated Affects on Game Play:
Snipers: Still effective but harder as for the best grouping you must stay still and wait longer. Sniping rate of fire is reduced. (Hey, kinda like a real sniper).
Pop Tarting: Becomes more difficult but still viable. You can hold down the fire key and jump then try to get your focused fire on target or accept a wider "spread" and blase away when you are up there.
PPC Boats: Still have very dangerous one hit potential, but will have difficulty following up with that second pin-point shot to finish you off.
LRMs: No direct effect unless LRMs get a similar treatment where the longer you hold the fire key down (to a set maximum) the wider the spread. Artemis would affect this time.
UACs and AC 2s (and future RACs): Become a bit less effective overall probably. Assumption is the cone resets each shot. These become more spray and pray weapons at maximum rate of fire. Up close you can still buzzsaw someone but at medium and longer ranges you are unlikely to reliable place quick shot after shot in the same body panel.
Auto Cannons: My desire would be that after the first second holding the fire key down, the weapon will fire when you let go. The 'fire delay' would be gone making it a trade off between the hit cone and wondering when the round is actually kleaving.

Unknown To Me: I do not know hos a mechanic as described above would be implimented in the client-server set up MWO has. I am guessing that aim bots would be voided as weapons are technically "randomized" across a small cirle of effect. But I imagine that someone will try to make something that automatically applies the "gold lock" smallest target cone. Hopefully PGI could defeat this programming.

Why "Gold Lock"?: Some of the earler BattleTech novels described the time when the target computers had provided the best solution as a gold reticle lock. Thus I am honoring the early days by suggesting that the optimum target solution (smallest hit cone) is the Golden Lock.

Okay - Sharpen the pitchforks or gather under my banner as you wish now. I am running for my secret air raid shelter.

[Cest7]

If this game implimented RBS this late into production, the forums would explode and people would start leaving in droves.

This was brought up in CBT as an alternative for convergence but ultimately shot down.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Yeah, a bunch of people hate the "cone of fire" mechanic. Given that it's basically how mechs work in the fiction, I'd be ok with it, especially if pilot efficiencies could help you mitigate it (shrink the circle, or make it tighten up faster, or whatever).

The main factor in circle size, were this to be added, ought to be your speed. Not as a throttle %, but in absolute terms. So, going 150kph? Better be right next to your target. Going 50kph? You have a lot better chance of hitting much farther out. Standing still? You can snipe with the best of them.. Range is already built in to the mechanic (the relative size of the reticule against near targets is much smaller than against far targets).

All in all, though, it'd be the safer (and very likely the better) play for PGI to keep things as they are. Better to balance weapons with refire rates, heat, etc.

[Vassago Rain]

No.
Bring this in, I'm gone. Same with 3rd person.

[Cest7]

WOT's cone of fire literally put me off from the game. Bullets don't go to what I'm aiming at? Next game.

[Royalewithcheese]

It's a cool idea, but that's not the direction this mechwarrior title went in. Plus, component targeting and destruction is fun

[Tarman]

Eww cone of fire. No need for pitchforks, this idea kills itself. This isn't something you add to a game later on unless you hate your players. You start with it from the get-go or you don't have it.

[Inconspicuous]

Cone of fire does not make much sense in this game. I like when the weapon shoots where I am aiming at.

[OneEyed Jack]

Cone of fire actually makes a lot of sense if you're able to consider it objectively, taking the fiction (which is canon), the TT and how to best represent those within a video game. I think it would have helped with a lot of issues that they instead had to alter balance to correct. All in all, I personally would have preferred it.

That said, it's just not possible at this point. Too massive a change to the basic functionality of the game.

[ragingmunkyz]

No, thank you. Cone of fire is one of those things that drives me nuts about many modern fps games. You say you don't want random chance hit rolls, but thats basically what cone of fire is.

Tar? Check. Feathers? Check. Pitchfork? Double Check. Now where's this air raid shelter...

[SuomiWarder]

I know it's kinda late for a drastic change, I'm just saying that multi ton weapons housed in cages attached to myomar muscles that stretch when heated are probably jiggle all over. It's not like you are sitting behind one vehicle mounted machine gun and looking down the barrel or using one gattle gun hard fixed to a solid platform with a laser range finder on the other end of your video targeting system.

[Khobai]

Just say no to RNG. Theres better ways to increase mech survivability that dont replace skill with luck.

[Vassago Rain]

OneEyed Jack, on 09 March 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Cone of fire actually makes a lot of sense if you're able to consider it objectively, taking the fiction (which is canon), the TT and how to best represent those within a video game. I think it would have helped with a lot of issues that they instead had to alter balance to correct. All in all, I personally would have preferred it.

That said, it's just not possible at this point. Too massive a change to the basic functionality of the game.

No one reads battletech books, and robots that are that inaccurate would have made everybody laugh at this game.

[Hatachi]

Vassago Rain, on 09 March 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

No one reads battletech books, and robots that are that inaccurate would have made everybody laugh at this game.

Vassago, I'll never understand how you can like Mechwarrior so much and dislike Battletech just as much. It seems like a guy who loves DnD novels but thinks that tabletop is absolutely stupid.

[Tarman]

Hatachi, on 09 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Vassago, I'll never understand how you can like Mechwarrior so much and dislike Battletech just as much. It seems like a guy who loves DnD novels but thinks that tabletop is absolutely stupid.

He actually loves this IP enough to know pretty much everything that's wrong and broken in it, far as I can tell. You don't get that being a casual fan.

[Vassago Rain]

Hatachi, on 09 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Vassago, I'll never understand how you can like Mechwarrior so much and dislike Battletech just as much. It seems like a guy who loves DnD novels but thinks that tabletop is absolutely stupid.

See...

Tarman, on 09 March 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

He actually loves this IP enough to know pretty much everything that's wrong and broken in it, far as I can tell. You don't get that being a casual fan.

That.

[Ralgas]

The other issue is actual coding (and i'm not a programmer, just speculating here) in combination with convergence and the fact that mechs have multi firing points and weapons systems operating at the same time (which i don't think i've seen in any other game that uses a spread pattern recticle) , even if it were possible the extra information load client-> server may well degrade the game experience

Edited by Ralgas, 09 March 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[Barbaric Soul]

It's hard enough to hit fast moving mechs as is, and you want to add cone of fire? If you think the forums exploded when coolant flush was announced, what do you think cone of fire would do at this point in the game?

Edited by Barbaric Soul, 09 March 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Vechs]

The Cone of Fire system in World of Tanks was okay, I thought. That was because it was there from the start, and because you were in command of a *crew* of tankers. The Cone of Fire was simulating not your accuracy, but that of your gunner.

The difference in how I look at it is like this:

WoT:
Okay, let me stop behind this low mound and keep my tank steady so that my gunner can lay the gun into a good firing position.

MWO:
I am piloting my mech, and I am going to shoot at that enemy.

See the difference there?

Edited by Vechs, 09 March 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[Hatachi]

I didn't bring it up due to your hatred of stuff like cone of fire etc. More to do with you seem to have seething hatred if a character from canon or stock mechs of any kind etc come up.