181 replies to this topic

[Lootee]

Yoseful Mallad, on 11 March 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

because I feel in numbers, LRMs are to good in the damage department. I also feel the same for SRMs and have said they too need a damage nerf. As for the AC20 cat... That would not even be an issue if PGI did not allow it to be viable on 1 build and only 1 build lol. AC20s are never talked about as being OP if its just 1 AC20 right? I'm not even saying duel AC20s need not be on any mech... Because even if there are mech in the future that can mount duel AC20s... And there will, AC20s are easy to deal with.

If they ever fix the super large weapons like AC/20, UAC/20, LB20-X and Heavy Gauss so that you can house them in 2 body sections, the AC20 cat will be downright scary. It will be able to use an XL engine. If the Jagermech can mount 2 of them in the arms, it too will be able to use an XL.

[Joe Mallad]

Davers, on 11 March 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

What do we do with the King Crab? Thats easy. Give it a bunch of missile points so everyone will turn it into a SRM boat.

lol... Right. But the standard KC is scary enough with 2 AC20s, a LRM 15 and large laser.

[Davers]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 11 March 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

there ARE multiple builds that can one shot already. Splatcat for example

And thats why there is only one medium mech in your average match. Between Splatcats/AC/20 Cats/multiple PPC builds, etc and the heat system that punishes energy builds like the Hunchback people would rather just lower their tonnage for increased survivability, or upgrade for increased damage.

[Severus Baggins Kerensky]

The fact that Artemis doesn't work unless you have LOS is already good but it should be pushed further.
Keep the LRM damage, but make the damage spread to other parts or even hit random parts of a mech like SSRM, UNLESS they use TAG. Make TAG the pinpointer where if there's someone TAGing an enemy mech's torso, the LRMs will hit that. Make it a percentage chance, like 90% chance Artemis will hit the TAGed part while only 50% for non-Artemis. So you could even leg mechs with it.

This should separate those boating LRMs just so they could hide behind cover all match to those who are actually using skill with TAG or have a TAG partner.

[Joe Mallad]

Severus Baggins Kerensky, on 11 March 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

The fact that Artemis doesn't work unless you have LOS is already good but it should be pushed further.
Keep the LRM damage, but make the damage spread to other parts or even hit random parts of a mech like SSRM, UNLESS they use TAG. Make TAG the pinpointer where if there's someone TAGing an enemy mech's torso, the LRMs will hit that. Make it a percentage chance, like 90% chance Artemis will hit the TAGed part while only 50% for non-Artemis. So you could even leg mechs with it.

This should separate those boating LRMs just so they could hide behind cover all match to those who are actually using skill with TAG or have a TAG partner.

have you or most people taken LRMs with and without Artemis into the training grounds? While you do more damage in the training ground because the mechs are not moving to avoid the missiles, I can assure you that LRMs do in fact spread to all sections of the mech. While a better portion to hit center torso (front and back) this is the largest hit box on any mech so its to be expected lol. The spread on LRMs is fine.

I even had one test happen that my 30 LRMs hit the test Jenner and took its left leg,arm and left torso off in that volley. I lol,d on that test because of how much that would have sucked in a real game.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 11 March 2013 - 07:47 PM.

[Davers]

Yoseful Mallad, on 11 March 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

have you or most people taken LRMs with and without Artemis into the training grounds? While you do more damage in the training ground because the mechs are not moving to avoid the missiles, I can assure you that LRMs do in fact spread to all sections of the mech. While a better portion to hit center torso (front and back) this is the largest hit box on any mech so its to be expected lol. The spread on LRMs is fine.

I even had one test happen that my 30 LRMs hit the test Jenner and took its left leg,arm and left torso off in that volley. I lol,d on that test because of how much that would have sucked in a real game.

If LRMs work like SRMs, they explode in a 3m radius and the damage is divided into the number of sections hit.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Yoseful Mallad, on 11 March 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

have you or most people taken LRMs with and without Artemis into the training grounds? While you do more damage in the training ground because the mechs are not moving to avoid the missiles, I can assure you that LRMs do in fact spread to all sections of the mech. While a better portion to hit center torso (front and back) this is the largest hit box on any mech so its to be expected lol. The spread on LRMs is fine.

I even had one test happen that my 30 LRMs hit the test Jenner and took its left leg,arm and left torso off in that volley. I lol,d on that test because of how much that would have sucked in a real game.

I dunno; given the only place I ever lose on a mech when Im getting shot at by LRMs is my CT looks like it isnt spread enough

[Desist]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 11 March 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

I dunno; given the only place I ever lose on a mech when Im getting shot at by LRMs is my CT looks like it isnt spread enough

If you turn your torso while LRMs are coming in, you're more likely to live and at most lose an arm.

[Lennex]

LRMs are fine right now. I actually find in general the game to be pretty balanced and playable, more than it has been in a long time.

There seems to be a counter for everything, and if your team works together you will be fine. I'm a 100% PUG, never teamed up once. But I know how to play and best support my team. Since the Treb came out I pretty much live in that mech, and I use the stock armor points for the most part. I do not run AMS on any of my load outs, and I do not have an issue with LRM users.

Every time I die from an LRM boat is because I get caught out in the open like a tool, or I'm getting swarmed by 2-3 lights with TAG and getting pelted like crazy...

I run dual ER PPC 3 SSRM 7M chassis which has proved to be my most effective design (400-600 dmg/match), or a 4 Mpulse 2 SRM6 package 3C. both are fast movers (90ish kph) and light on the armor. but its the speed that keeps me alive. In the case of the PPC model it keeps ECM at bay. That was the best thing about the recent patches, ECM being trumped by PPC.

think of it like rock paper scisors

paper covers rock
ECM counters LRMS

rock crushes scissors
LRMS counter PPC

scissors cut paper
PPC counters ECM

[Baltasar]

Need the faster mechs to do their job nothing more gratifying than tying up three lrm boats that aren't smart enough to spread out and cover each other. Did so in my 5J treb. 2 stalker and a cat lrm boat hammering our team (on caustic none the less). Flanked them and kept them busy (since their close up weapons weren't that great) gave time for the team to finish off the enemy and then mopped up the LRM boats (I did die but after our team started to engage the LRMs).

I have noticed more lrms but a lot are coming one launcher salvos firing (at least when there are a lot in the air) because there are a few starting to carry at least one launcher on the mech. Now there are still boats out there and, as has been said, nerfing damage to the missiles aren't going to hurt them much but will hurt those single launcher carriers. Maybe if they did travel faster and nerfed damage but I'm still reluctant on this because I usually carry just 2 lrm 15s and with damage the way they are now, they still aren't killing a lot really fast (with artemis and tag no less) They soften the mech up nicely and can finish off damaged mechs I would just worry that they would lose their usefulness if the nerf bat came.

ECM would have to really be looked at before LRMs are touched IMO

[Sug]

MasterGoa, on 11 March 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Having said this, I can one shot kill many mechs up to the 50 ton range.

In the training grounds.

[Sarda]

Must we have this exact same thread every single week? No, there not. There actually 10% weaker then they should be considering armor is doubled. Dev's said its not changing, nor does the majority think it should.

[Baltasar]

Sarda, on 11 March 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Must we have this exact same thread every single week? No, there not. There actually 10% weaker then they should be considering armor is doubled. Dev's said its not changing, nor does the majority think it should.

Week? Right now we averaging like 3 new threads a day.

[Davers]

Baltasar, on 11 March 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Week? Right now we averaging like 3 new threads a day.

We need more ECM threads to protect us from the hail of LRM threads!

Honestly, I think all the LRM threads are from ECM lovers who don't want it to be changed, and got scared when the Devs said they were going to look at it.

Edited by Davers, 11 March 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

LRM has recently received a couple of changes within the last couple of patches. The changes include:

• A tighter and uniform Artemis flight pattern
  
• Artemis requiring los in order to function

Together, these two changes allows a LRM user to cause focused damage to the intended target. A LRM user can score efficient kills, as long as the user has los with his intended target. This requires him to take a risk; the intended target or his allies would see the LRM user and can return fire (lasers, ballistics or LRM). This achieves a balance between risk vs reward, which is ultimately the goal.

The Problem
Currently missiles come in 180 to the ton. This exessive ammo allows for one to spam missiles from behind cover. When fired indirectly the missile will blanketing their intended target. This spreaded damage will not result in a kill without a lot of missiles. The problem therefore is the excessive amount of missiles granted per tonnage that allows for LRM spam.

The Fix
The goal is balance risk vs reward. If a pilot takes a larger risk, he has the potential of a larger reward. I propose the following changes:

• Decrease ammo count per tonnage (ex 180/ton -> 130/ton)
  
• Only if necessary, a slight nerf in damage (ex 1.8 -> 1.7)

This results in less missiles to spam. This coerces the LRM user to actively make a decision, either to be agressive and take risks or passively function as a support player. As support he will not have enough missiles to blanket the enemy to death. If he wants to actively eliminate players efficiently, he would have to invest in Artemis as well as maintain los to his intended target. By doing so, risks retaliation from the enemy. This maintains a balance of risk vs reward.

Math Breakdown
This compares a LRM boat of today compared to one after my proposed changes:

Keep in mind that typically all missiles in a full volley do not make it to their target so the potential damage is going to be typically less. That being said, I think is would be a fair trade-off in limiting the dominance presented by LRM spam.

[Gallowglas]

SpiralRazor, on 11 March 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Poll speaks for itself.

No, a poll is not going to tell you how balanced anything is. How do you know the people who answer aren't LRM boaters or run with people who are? You don't.

While perception of whether hiding behind cover for most of a match is subjective, it's still something to consider. Perception counts for something. However, balance is largely a numbers game. If any weapon is dominating the damage and kills charts, then that's a clear sign that it's not balanced correctly. I have faith that over time the evidence will bear out one way or another and PGI will correct or not based on it. People will whine regardless of course, because most people are anything but objective. That's life.

Edited by Gallowglas, 11 March 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[Baltasar]

StalaggtIKE, on 11 March 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

LRM has recently received a couple of changes within the last couple of patches. The changes include:

• A tighter and uniform Artemis flight pattern
  
• Artemis requiring los in order to function

Together, these two changes allows a LRM user to cause focused damage to the intended target. A LRM user can score efficient kills, as long as the user has los with his intended target. This requires him to take a risk; the intended target or his allies would see the LRM user and can return fire (lasers, ballistics or LRM). This achieves a balance between risk vs reward, which is ultimately the goal.


The Problem
Currently missiles come in 180 to the ton. This exessive ammo allows for one to spam missiles from behind cover. When fired indirectly the missile will blanketing their intended target. This spreaded damage will not result in a kill without a lot of missiles. The problem therefore is the excessive amount of missiles granted per tonnage that allows for LRM spam.

The Fix
The goal is balance risk vs reward. If a pilot takes a larger risk, he has the potential of a larger reward. I propose the following changes:

• Decrease ammo count per tonnage (ex 180/ton -> 130/ton)
  
• Only if necessary, a slight nerf in damage (ex 1.8 -> 1.7)

This results in less missiles to spam. This coerces the LRM user to actively make a decision, either to be agressive and take risks or passively function as a support player. As support he will not have enough missiles to blanket the enemy to death. If he wants to actively eliminate players efficiently, he would have to invest in Artemis as well as maintain los to his intended target. By doing so, risks retaliation from the enemy. This maintains a balance of risk vs reward.


Edit: cut for space.

The problem with this, is that the LRM20 cat is probably not the one spamming the missiles...its the assaults such as a 3 lrm 15 carring over 2000 missiles. I run 2 LRM15s carry just over 1000 missiles and if I run out (which I get close on a lot of maps) I'm still only averaging 500 to 600 a match because people know how to hide from missiles. And that's with me being judicious with my firing and not firing blindly.

[Davers]

LRM boats firing from behind cover tend to have poor damage. They don't get the benefit of Artemis, and unless someone else is tagging they don't get that either. Plus, they have no way of knowing if their target is going behind cover or not. I've lost track of the number of LRM boats firing missiles at targets hiding under the bridge on Forest Colony...

[Baltasar]

Davers, on 11 March 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

LRM boats firing from behind cover tend to have poor damage. They don't get the benefit of Artemis, and unless someone else is tagging they don't get that either. Plus, they have no way of knowing if their target is going behind cover or not. I've lost track of the number of LRM boats firing missiles at targets hiding under the bridge on Forest Colony...

But the assault boats can afford to do this and can get high damage numbers, because, eventually your team engages and they can fire and hit to their hearts content and have the tonnage to load up on tons of ammo so they will never run dry. They'll get more damage because their missiles are more spread out so they hit everything plus there is an endless supply. Again, the trouble isn't so much the LRMs themselves but the extreme boating that, I feel, people have trouble with. However, as I have stated before, assault mechs are the creme of the crop when it comes to damage potential and should be putting up high numbers and should be feared because of that.

[Thuzel]

AMS needs a buff, lrms would be fine after that.