181 replies to this topic

[StainlessSR]

Corwin Vickers, on 11 March 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

The problem is the people complaining play almost exactly like the test dummies in the testing grounds.

Those numbers don't sound all that great to me. 14 games, 3000 damage? Are you being sarcastic?

The thing that gets me is that it doesn't matter what mech I'm in, I'm going to be top 3 damage (except in some of my light mechs).

Players are OP

Coolant, on 12 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Just don't understand LRM's are overpowered threads. Get behind cover, they are not direct fire weapons. You are even told they are coming. And, there are specific electronics geared toward reducing damage. Really, LRM's overpowered? If you complain you are out in the open by yourself. They could double the damage from LRM's and they wouldn't be overpowered...

To the above two posters. While I understand that your uber elite 1%er skills allow you to shrug off any and all damage that stops you from posting 800+ damage with one small laser please let the vast majority of us whom sit more towards the middle of the bell curve of skill try to get the game mechanics leveled out for us. Thank you, but your posts about how skilled you are and how you have no problem because of your elite skills and the rest of us should develop the same does absolutely nothing for the rest of us. If boating LRM's are not OP then FLAMERS NEED A BUFF SO I can go around shutting down mechs and keeping them powered down while killing them with a machinegun.

[Fut]

StainlessSR, on 12 March 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

To the above two posters. While I understand that your uber elite 1%er skills allow you to shrug off any and all damage that stops you from posting 800+ damage with one small laser please let the vast majority of us whom sit more towards the middle of the bell curve of skill try to get the game mechanics leveled out for us. Thank you, but your posts about how skilled you are and how you have no problem because of your elite skills and the rest of us should develop the same does absolutely nothing for the rest of us. If boating LRM's are not OP then FLAMERS NEED A BUFF SO I can go around shutting down mechs and keeping them powered down while killing them with a machinegun.

You hit the nail on the head... er, well, kinda.
BOATING of LRMs is what's making people think they're grossly over powered. It's not the LRMs themselves causing the "problem", it's the ability to throw ~100 of them in one shot.

[Calem]

If you believe LRM "boats" are overpowered answer me this:

You are in a 1 vs. 1 deathmatch on Forest colony. You want to win badly.

Would you rather face

a) a PPC stalker with 6 ER PPCs
an A1 splatcat with 6 SRM6s
c) an Ilya Muromets with 3 UAC5
d) an LRM boat?

There you go, 4 boats. Energy, SRM, Ballistics, LRM.

I'd face the LRM boat any day, any time. Far less hazzle than the other 3.

(These threads regrow like hydra heads)

[Coolant]

StainlessSR, on 12 March 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

To the above two posters. While I understand that your uber elite 1%er skills allow you to shrug off any and all damage that stops you from posting 800+ damage with one small laser please let the vast majority of us whom sit more towards the middle of the bell curve of skill try to get the game mechanics leveled out for us. Thank you, but your posts about how skilled you are and how you have no problem because of your elite skills and the rest of us should develop the same does absolutely nothing for the rest of us. If boating LRM's are not OP then FLAMERS NEED A BUFF SO I can go around shutting down mechs and keeping them powered down while killing them with a machinegun.

Has absolutely nothing to do with how good a pilot is. Here is a hill...here is a building...both stop LRM's. Good and bad pilots alike can move behind hill or building...

[StainlessSR]

Calem, on 12 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

If you believe LRM "boats" are overpowered answer me this:

You are in a 1 vs. 1 deathmatch on Forest colony. You want to win badly.

Would you rather face

a) a PPC stalker with 6 ER PPCs
an A1 splatcat with 6 SRM6s
c) an Ilya Muromets with 3 UAC5
d) an LRM boat?

There you go, 4 boats. Energy, SRM, Ballistics, LRM.

I'd face the LRM boat any day, any time. Far less hazzle than the other 3.

(These threads regrow like hydra heads)

Depends on what I am running.

a) a PPC stalker with 6 ER PPCs --->just about any mech. (I would face one any day any time they tend to overheat and usually can't aim real great.)
an A1 splatcat with 6 SRM6s --->dual AC20 K2 (send a max to kill a max, lol)
c) an Ilya Muromets with 3 UAC5 --->just about any mech (I would face one any day any time. They are painful but you just have to keep moving (plus vary speed) around to keep their lead off)
d) an LRM boat? ---> any ecm light if it is a true boat (no inclose defense) but with the plethura of Stalker lrm boats whom can still have 4 lasers for close defense a fast cent (90+ kph min) may be the better choice you have to be able to move fast enough to get under the min range because 1 or 2 alpha will core an atlas, and once there it's all cake.

[StainlessSR]

Coolant, on 12 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Has absolutely nothing to do with how good a pilot is. Here is a hill...here is a building...both stop LRM's. Good and bad pilots alike can move behind hill or building...

You are right it has nothing to do with how good a pilot is. However, there are times when there is no cover to get where you need to be, or you are in a brawl when you start to get pounded out by the boat, they hurt before but that was semi ok cause they used to spread enough to also get some hits on the enemy that you were fighting and the spread was all over your mech. Now they just core you out like your mech is a tub of butter. 2 alpha strikes can be as quick as 4 seconds. in alpine the distance you may have to cover to get into cover is much more than that, and the new map is supposed to be larger and being desert it should have even less covering terrain as most deserts are just low rolling hills or flat as a pancake which would be useless in defense of an LRM swarm. You are trying to argue that certain situations pertain to LRM's not being op. On Forest I worry about LRM but not alot, on River city I don't worry at all, on frozen I worry about the same as on forest, Caustic I worry alot about lrm's, same on alpine with the newer maps supposed to be larger and probably with more open area will cause the same problems if there is not a correction to this problem soon.
.

[Corvus Antaka]

LRMS seem fine to me. With all the ECM around it is pretty tough to LRM stuff, ECM lights jumping you make your LRMS useless, etc.

IF ECM no longer gives the stealth bubble at range and TAG is not needed for locks I could see a damage nurf to 1.5 or 1.6.

Personally I like the LRM dynamics. I have very litte trouble dealing with LRM boats myself, even without ECM, and I don't find running them is OP unless I run into a team with no ECM that decides to plunge out intot he open and charge me from 800 meters out...in which case the LRMS should shred them.

[Fut]

StainlessSR, on 12 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

You are right it has nothing to do with how good a pilot is. However, [1]there are times when there is no cover to get where you need to be, or you are in a brawl when you start to get pounded out by the boat, they hurt before but that was semi ok cause they used to spread enough to also get some hits on the enemy that you were fighting and the spread was all over your mech. Now they just core you out like your mech is a tub of butter. [2]2 alpha strikes can be as quick as 4 seconds. in alpine the distance you may have to cover to get into cover is much more than that, and the new map is supposed to be larger and being desert it should have even less covering terrain as most deserts are just low rolling hills or flat as a pancake which would be useless in defense of an LRM swarm. You are trying to argue that certain situations pertain to LRM's not being op. On Forest I worry about LRM but not alot, on River city I don't worry at all, on frozen I worry about the same as on forest, Caustic I worry alot about lrm's, same on alpine with the newer maps supposed to be larger and probably with more open area will cause the same problems if there is not a correction to this problem soon.
.

[1] You can use other 'Mechs as cover. Bonus points to you if you make the enemies' LRMs hit one of his own teammates! If not, move around so that the LRMs don't all hit the same location on your 'Mech. They might be tightly packed (due to Artemis and/or TAG), but if your swivel around you'll last longer.
[2] How many Alpha Strikes from a 6xPPC Stalker can you withstand? (Ps. PPCs only have a 3second cooldown time...)

Edited by Fut, 12 March 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Sheraf]

Fut, on 12 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

[1] You can use other 'Mechs as cover. Bonus points to you if you make the enemies' LRMs hit one of his own teammates! If not, move around so that the LRMs don't all hit the same location on your 'Mech. They might be tightly packed (due to Artemis and/or TAG), but if your swivel around you'll last longer.
[2] How many Alpha Strikes from a 6xPPC Stalker can you withstand? (Ps. PPCs only have a 3second cooldown time...)

Work especially well when you have a friendly atlas nearby . I guess he doesn't mind cover for his teammate.

Edited by Sheraf, 12 March 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Run perpendicular to the LRMs and most of them won't hit you. AMS further reduces the number. That is assuming you don't have ANY cover anywhere near you. Not having cover means anything can hit you, not just LRMs.

You don't have any of these protections (except cover) from direct fire weapons.

People posting high damage from LRMs are not firing them indirectly. They are within 600m firing at a guy in the open who is moving directly at them while they hold a TAG beam on them for 6 seconds. Usually there's 1 guy running down the middle of the water while 7 of the LRM mechs buddies also fire at him.

No other weapon has as many counters or requires as much dedication to use, with a minimum range to boot.


There seems to be a fallacy around that being in a 100 ton mech should entitle you to walk in the open and absorb all the damage that comes in. Hiding is a part of the game, not letting the other guy hit you is a part of the game, not letting the enemy get more guns on you than you get on them is a part of the game.

If you are not good at hiding you have to get better. "We don't have the skills" is not a good excuse. There are games out there where you can be a god with no skill, they are single player games.

If the developers were to dumb down the game play so that people who don't want to learn that "missle coming at me = hide" what kind of game would this be? Everyone marching in a line across an open field firing their weapons outside of their maximum range, then firing their PPCs inside their minimum range, every one of them expecting to be a god because they were furiously alpha striking all their weapons the whole time?

Mechwarrior is a thinking man's game. That is why you have torso twist, heat management, ammo conservation, hit locations, team mates, weapon ranges, etc etc etc.


StainlessRR, you posted that you did 3000 damage over 14 games. That is about 200 damage per game. With this data you stated that it was proof that LRMs are over powered. If 200 a game is over powered to you what do you normally score? If someone scores 200 damage or less I figure they either suicided into the enemy at the beginning of the round, they were AFK, or they were some kind of simple macro that ran in circles shooting the sky.

I honestly don't know what to say to "200 damage a round is OP!"

I'm scoring 1300 damage with SRMs, 800 damage with PPCs. You do 200 damage with LRMs and think it's OP? It boggles the mind.

[Fabian Wrede]

Drop lrm damage down to 1 pt and srm down to 2 pt but at the same time take away the cloak of unlocking from ECM

[SmokinDave73]

The problem is the new Artemis system groups the missles way to tightly and they tend to seek out your CT even when the enemy does not have line of sight. The amount of missles curve now is ridiculous aswell you can run completely behind a mountain now with ECM aswell and they will curve right around the moutain and still hit you. Tag also stacks with artemis so you have a 75% reduced lock on time, which i way to powerful IMO.

[Revorn]

Wrede, on 13 March 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Drop lrm damage down to 1 pt and srm down to 2 pt but at the same time take away the cloak of unlocking from ECM

With dmg of 1.7 we hat pre ECM the Situation, that even the last Pilot didnt care any longer about LRMs, because the dmg was minimal and you suggesting to lower it to 1?

Edited by Revorn, 13 March 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Red squirrel]

A good fix for missiles seems almost impossible to me.
If you nerf them mechs with a single LRM15 become useless.
On the other hand those 60 to 80 LRM boats are horrible atm (I have one so I know ).

For me the biggest issue is that the missile tube system seems to be buggy. My AWS-8R can shoot
60 LRMs in one volley out of 30 missile tubes. (Same for SMRs where my CN9-A can shoot 18 SRMs in one volley out of 10 missile tubes)

If PGI implemented a serious delay between missile volleys depending on the number of missile tubes. It would become much less preferable to put an LRM15 into a 6 tube SRM spot.
Then make AMS a bit stronger against small volleys of missiles and here you go. The 80LRM Stalker is still possible but not as crazy as before.

[Koshirou]

Calem, on 12 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

You are in a 1 vs. 1 deathmatch on Forest colony.

No we're not. Basing your argument on a situation that does not and indeed cannot actually happen in the game pretty much devalues it from the start. That said...

Quote

a) a PPC stalker with 6 ER PPCs
an A1 splatcat with 6 SRM6s
c) an Ilya Muromets with 3 UAC5
d) an LRM boat?

It depends. If I have a fast Mech with ECM, d)
Otherwise one of the others, but it also depends on what I'm packing.

ECM/LRM balance is broken. As many others have suggested, both need to be taken down a peg instead of banking on the highly unreliable idea of these systems cancelling out each other.

[Koshirou]

Coolant, on 12 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Get behind cover, they are not direct fire weapons.

Why do you flaunt this statement as if its patent self-contradiction somehow improved it instead of nullifying it?

[Dreepa]

Solution could be this:

Missile launcher accuracy: 100%

Each missile fired reduces accuracy by -1% for the next 10 seconds

The more you fire, the less accurate missiles become.

The values, of course, need tweaking, but you get the general idea.

Edited by Dreepa, 13 March 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[Calem]

Koshirou, on 13 March 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

No we're not. Basing your argument on a situation that does not and indeed cannot actually happen in the game pretty much devalues it from the start.

The point was to make people consider the relative power of different boat types. The LRM boat is the only one which can be effectively neutered by tactical use of a rock. Not even taking min-range and ECM handicaps into account. It’s also the only one offering you a choice where you’d like your damage if you cannot help getting hit (torso-rolling), the only one giving you a warning and several seconds of yadda yadda yadda.

Stuff needs to be seen in perspective. People are so whiny about LRMs yet don’t complain about an Ilya being able to shell out > 120 aimed damage, without heat issues, within 10 seconds.

I could see a retune of LRM/ECM in combination like you suggested work in favour of the game, however, as that’s effectively a trade-off as far as LRMs are concerned.

[Ilwrath]

You cannot gimp LRM boats because of ECM. The damage is needed to take down ECM Atlas in a reasonable time. Artemis don't work against them and you have to keep em tagged while not getting them too close.

Its balanced. Very sad for non-ECM mechs but they can comfort themself with the fact that I will always burn down the ECM Atlas first so there will be time to get into cover or even get to the LRM boat.

[Jam the Bam]

I feel like I must be the only person in the world that has never been killed by an LRM boat. Ever.

They tell you they are coming! Then take time to get to you! What else do you need?

If you are wandering around in the open like that then I have no sympathy for you.

Then if that wasn't enough help, the damage arrives spread out and staggered, meaning you can twist and turn and spread it over your whole mech. Those facts alone make it one of the least capable weapons in the game when it come to effectively knocking out mechs.