181 replies to this topic

[Tie Ma]

Splitpin, on 11 March 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

If LRMs were any less effective they might as well be removed from the game. They have been removed from the 8 man teams as some have noted. Is that what you want, no LRMs at all, a much shallower game ?

lrms are not played in 8man because of how unreliable they are in light of ECM. ECM in general should have been changed. then some of the LRM problems would be more apparent.

Edited by Tie Ma, 11 March 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Increase each missiles damage to 2.5, increase speed to 1000 M/s, and they will still hit the side of the building I am hiding behind untill the ECM mech closes with you.

[CMGrendel]

Wait three weeks and come back.

This is a natural occurrence as a result of ECM mechs no longer being flavour of the month.

With virtually no LRMs around for the last two months, players have got into some very bad habits. They are being punished for this. Once people stop slowly walking across open spaces, I guarantee you the number of kills people are getting will drop.

[Devils Advocate]

LRMs are just flawed in design. In theory LRMs are supposed to be support weapons, which shouldn't really have issues with terrain, just shouldn't do much damage. In the current system LRMs are hard countered by any kind of terrain, but as soon as a volley connects with you because you wandered out in the open for 3 seconds you're almost dead. It's like a really slow sniper rifle and it fills much of the same role. Until they get some kind of major overhaul they're always going to be too powerful or too weak, and they're never going to fill their role as a 'support' weapon, particularly with ECM in effect as it is.

[TheGreatNoNo]

Leave LRMs alone. Either buff the AMS to shoot 7 missiles a volley or cut the ammo weight in half. I would start using AMS if I did not have to drop two things, or one thing and a half a ton of armor.

[Nightcrept]

Tie Ma, on 11 March 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

lrms are not played in 8man because of how unreliable they are in light of ECM. ECM in general should have been changed. then some of the LRM problems would be more apparent.

Lrm's were balanced before ecm came out.

[Sug]

80% of my LRM kills are my target's fault.

[Hammish]

Livewyr, on 11 March 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

1. Drop damage to 1.3-1.5.
2.Increase missile speed to 150-175 (so you don't have to remain on target for 10 seconds after you shoot.. so you can use it on regular mechs and not just boats)
3.Reduce the rock n roll to a cumulative twitch.
4. Profit

Missiles solved.

Quoted for truth. I'd also lower the default tracking on missiles considerably but raise the bonus provided by TAG. This would raise the skillcap and punish people who allowed TAG to be drawn on them, reward people for using LRMs and TAG as a combo, and it'd give more survivability back to non-TAG'd 'mechs moving at at least a decent clip. This would also have the added benefit of penalizing slower, heavier chassis more than faster, lighter ones.. which is as it should be. An Atlas wandering out into the middle of the river on Forest Colony ought to be expecting some pain.

It also rolls nicely into possible ECM changes regarding making it less nullsig and more just stopping anything electronic from working on a shielded 'mech (like it should, IMO). If missiles are inherently inaccurate and unable to track well but rely on TAG, Narc or Artemis to guide them.. and ECM stops any of the higher-guidance packages from working.. well, there you have the best of both worlds. LRMs are now more support weapons by default and require additional tricks to make them killers.. but those killers have a soft counter instead of a hard counter, making for smoother gameplay all around instead of all-or-nothing.

[Grraarrgghh]

Sug, on 11 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

80% of my LRM kills are my target's fault.

Exactly. Stop playing against bads and your LRMs become useless.

[Joe Mallad]

I think the LRM standard spread needs to be spread back out a bit but Artemis is supposed to give LRMs a greater chance to hit so the new flight pattern is good and represents more of them being able to hit the target to do their damage. However I do feel LRM damage needs to be taken down to 1.5 per missile and because more missiles can now hit with the added tighter missiles pattern of Artemis... I feel the Artemis upgrade cost needs to be raised as well.

[Davers]

Yoseful Mallad, on 11 March 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think the LRM standard spread needs to be spread back out a bit but Artemis is supposed to give LRMs a greater chance to hit so the new flight pattern is good and represents more of them being able to hit the target to do their damage. However I do feel LRM damage needs to be taken down to 1.5 per missile and because more missiles can now hit with the added tighter missiles pattern of Artemis... I feel the Artemis upgrade cost needs to be raised as well.

So you want to make standard LRMs useless? We already saw that lower than 1.8 damage means LRMs don't do squat.

[Fajther]

PGI has provided plenty of counter-play. A nearly absolute counter in ecm. Better weapons exist for only a small amount of effort. I would say that lrms are just fine where they are at. A first order optimal strategy that can be altered to be slightly more competitive. Lights are really missing out on the opportunity they have to eat these guys alive. You may hate them because you are immensely loyal to a build that is vulnerable to lrms. Maybe it is time to play a little meta game and switch to something that kills them easily. The devs don't have to solve all of our problems. You can solve them.

Edited by Fajther, 11 March 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Chavette]

Lower it to one, I wanna be able to rambo when I please.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 11 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

If you are firing so many LRMs that you can one shot a medium mech in one salvo you must have dedicated a lot of tonnage to it. So either you have weak back up weapons, are pretty slow, very limited ammo, or have paper thin armor. You can't have everything. I have an Awesome with 3 LRM15s with Artemis- When the enemy is out in the open I am pretty terrifying, but when they get close I am pretty screwed.

LRMs are great against players who refuse to use cover, or are too busy fighting another mech and think "I can take a few salvos while I finish this guy". But against people who use cover, or have smart fast mech pilots LRM boats are pretty easy targets.

If LRMs moved at that speed then AMS will be rendered completely useless. You wouldn't be able to knock out a single missile.

LRMs are not 'great'. They are designed to exploit bad players and force good players to always have to use the same tactics. If there are LRMs on the field then your map options and deployment options fall into a small handful of catagories. That's it. There's no tactical challenge, there is less. In a way it's like the ECM + premade vs pug debate. It's a game mechanic designed to exploit the new and the less skilled. Against everyone else it doesn't matter.

Make AMS shoot correspondingly faster, that's the easy balancing part.

With faster but less damaging LRMs a 3x15 boat is viable but a 2x15 + direct fire weapons build is better. Which is exactly what the game needs.

If we want artillery we need ARROW IV. If you want to sit in the back and respond to calls for indirect fire that's exactly what it does. That would be awesome. LRMs though should be for accurate attacks on fast moving targets at range or to soften enemies up while closing (or keeping at range). Area denial in its current form reduces tactical complexity, not increases it.

[Sug]

How about we increase the speed and increase the cooldown? I'm sick of watching my shots float over the map slower than someone can throw a baseball.

Yes. Do the math.

I made a rocket in gradeschool that was faster than LRMs.

Edited by Sug, 11 March 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 11 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

LRMs are not 'great'. They are designed to exploit bad players and force good players to always have to use the same tactics. If there are LRMs on the field then your map options and deployment options fall into a small handful of catagories. That's it. There's no tactical challenge, there is less. In a way it's like the ECM + premade vs pug debate. It's a game mechanic designed to exploit the new and the less skilled. Against everyone else it doesn't matter.

Make AMS shoot correspondingly faster, that's the easy balancing part.

With faster but less damaging LRMs a 3x15 boat is viable but a 2x15 + direct fire weapons build is better. Which is exactly what the game needs.

If we want artillery we need ARROW IV. If you want to sit in the back and respond to calls for indirect fire that's exactly what it does. That would be awesome. LRMs though should be for accurate attacks on fast moving targets at range or to soften enemies up while closing (or keeping at range). Area denial in its current form reduces tactical complexity, not increases it.

Direct fire weapons are already better than LRMs. Remember when LRMs did like 1.6 damage and you needed to fire 2 tons to kill an enemy mech? Why would you want to bring those days back?

The use of LRMs to reduce the tactical options of your opponent is one of the biggest reasons to use LRMs. It forces them into fewer and more predictable options. This is not a 'bug' of LRMs, it's a feature!

Plus, let's not fall into the fallacy that LRMs are just there to 'soften up' your opponent. No one took an 85 ton Longbow (2 LRM20, 2 LRM5, 2 Medium Lasers) to just 'soften' an opponent. LRMs kill in Battletech.

Sug, on 11 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

How about we increase the speed and increase the cooldown? I'm sick of watching my shots float over the map slower than someone can throw a baseball.

Yes. Do the math.

I made a rocket in gradeschool that was faster than LRMs.

LRMs actually move at 360kph in MWO. You must have made a hell of a rocket.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

Look kiddos LRMs are the FotM that is all it is because lagshield got fixed.

If after the end of March people are still complaining about them then maybe I would consider something. Just hink about the next FotM. Jagermech QUAD!!! UAC/5 or dual AC/20s with a XL engine to fit more stuff in.

So please quit whining about LRMs they have been fine for months its just more people using them right now since 3Ls got nerfed" in a sense.

[Gallowglas]

I really have to laugh at the suggestion that all you have to do is use cover. That's like saying that rampant air pollution isn't a problem because you don't have to go outside. Yes, of course you can avoid them by attaching yourself to a building or hill. Congratulations. Now you're going to spend 80% of the match hiding and will be a sitting duck for enemy lights.

Let's be honest: it's a gross over-simplification of the problem. LRM's should never be such an overwhelming threat that you can't go out into the open for fear of dying in 1-2 volleys. That's not balance and it's not how things played out in the TT. Just because you *can* survive it if you play smart doesn't mean it's a compelling game mechanic.

Much like with the A1 Cat, the problem isn't so much the weapon itself as it is massive boating, particularly when there are more than one. And, yes, we're back to plenty of matches where this happens, usually in the form of LRM Stalkers.

Edited by Gallowglas, 11 March 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Sug]

Davers, on 11 March 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

LRMs actually move at 360kph in MWO. You must have made a hell of a rocket.

God damnmit. I blame my complete lack of sleep. I was thinking of 100m/s as 100mph. Ironic because:

http://mwomercs.com/...-missile-speed/

[Davers]

Gallowglas, on 11 March 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

I really have to laugh at the suggestion that all you have to do is use cover. That's like saying that rampant air pollution isn't a problem because you don't have to go outside. Yes, of course you can avoid them by attaching yourself to a building or hill. Congratulations. Now you're going to spend 80% of the match hiding and will be a sitting duck for enemy lights.

Let's be honest: it's a gross over-simplification of the problem. LRM's should never be such an overwhelming threat that you can't go out into the open for fear of dying in 1-2 volleys. That's not balance and it's not how things played out in the TT. Just because you *can* survive it if you play smart doesn't mean it's a compelling game mechanic.

Much like with the A1 Cat, the problem isn't so much the weapon itself as it is massive boating, particularly when there are more than one. And, yes, we're back to plenty of matches where this happens, usually in the form of LRM Stalkers.

It's an unfortunate but true fact that high damage alpha strikes and boating will be prevalent in MWO. The same said of LRMs can be said about 6 PPC Stalkers, AC/20 Cats, 6SRM6 Cats, Gausscats, Gauss+2ERPPC Cataphracts, etc. The list goes on. Builds that would have been completely laughable in TT are very effective in a game with pinpoint accuracy. People who take moderate and 'balanced' builds are at a serious disadvantage against a specialist. But we can't just nerf every build that is effective.

It is unlikely PGI will ever be able to fix this situation, after all this problem has always existed in BT even after 25+ years. There is a reason no serious tournament allows customized mechs.