181 replies to this topic

[FrDrake]

I'm not sure where everyone is getting this one to two volley BS number. Do none of you max your armor? I played around 30 matches in a LRM boat(LRMx55 w/Art) this past weekend and can't recall dropping anything in one volley except a Spider that got stuck on a wall. You do realize even with LoS I watched my missiles chase a jenner and splash all over the ground when he was going max speed in the open field.

If you're in an A1 and want to charge me from 500m across open terrain as well I had that happen once, with my LRMs AND my 4 MLAS I was able to drop him by the time he got to 200m, I was also backpedaling to keep distance though. It was 4 salvos though still and I had to get a good shot in his side torso that was exposed with my lasers.


Also this weekend I played some ECM spider. One match I went 4/4 and got 650 dmg on enemy LRM boats that just could do NOTHING as I picked them apart from the back line one by one. Sure they murdered most of the rest of my team but they were absolutely crippled by a 30 ton mech with 3 mlas who cored them each systematically. And really all the ECM meant was that they couldn't shoot my friends while i was doing it, a Jenner or any other light would have had the same success.

LRMs are fine, as usual rock says paper OP.

[Dredhawk]

I have my Founder Catapult set up with 2 LRM 20-Artemis and 2 medium laser, tag laser, AMS if some one get in close to me im normally screwed unless there almost dead...If you have a smart team the first thing they will try to do is hunt down the LRM mech and kill it...also I could be wrong cant tag Laser allow you to hit ECM mech I was using a tag laser on a atlas D-DC with ECM and hitting him...

Edited by Dredhawk, 11 March 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Livewyr]

der langsamere, on 11 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Its funny, when LRMs were 1.7 per missile, they were worthless because you could walk through a hail of them and ignore them completely.

NOW that theyre 1.8, theyre so OP they need ECM to counter them and AMS/tactics to avioid them are useless.

ONE TENTH OF A POINT OF DAMAGE DIFFERENCE

We're arguing over one tenth of a damage

they were useless at 1.7 because they didn't have TAG, Artemis etc to tighten up the group.

Now a single LRM20 CAN put 36 damage into the LT, CT, and RT of most mechs...

[Raalic]

At range, I score easy kills with my 4 LRM15+Artemis Stalker. Especially with LoS.

I would be seeeriously disappointed if I didn't. Get within 180m (not real hard with ECM), and I am going to have a tough time bringing you down with 4 medium lasers and the world's crappiest turning radius.

[Trauglodyte]

Nightcrept, on 11 March 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I wonder if elo doesn't have a hand in this as well?

All the good light mech pilots maybe in the higher elo rankings were players use less lrms.

I know firing off lrms in many matches I am in is like wearing a meat suit and jumping in shark infested water. Unless you are sticking close to your team your food.

ELO doesn't have anything to do with this. The problem is that, against people who use cover, firing off LRMs based on a spotter is worthless reducing accuracy, damage, and ammunition. Using LRMs via flanking is effective but, even then, smart players will move to cover reducing damage capacity. So, in essence, LRMs are only effective against targets in the open, at which point, they're decimating to the point of rediculousness.

So, people are happy with LRMs because they don't always hit but when they do they hurt in a major way. But people like myself want them to become more effective and less end of the world. Yet, there are so many that have their fingers in their ears while humming saying that everything is fine.Point is, what needs to happen is an exchange of damage for speed. Getting them to the target faster means that you're raising your accuracy and lowering your dead ammunition loss. Reducing their damage output means that it is much less dangerous crossing open spaces without getting blown to pieces. And, if it cuts down on the number of ***** LRM boats, then that is a blessing in disguise.

[Davers]

FrDrake, on 11 March 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

I'm not sure where everyone is getting this one to two volley BS number. Do none of you max your armor? I played around 30 matches in a LRM boat(LRMx55 w/Art) this past weekend and can't recall dropping anything in one volley except a Spider that got stuck on a wall. You do realize even with LoS I watched my missiles chase a jenner and splash all over the ground when he was going max speed in the open field.

If you're in an A1 and want to charge me from 500m across open terrain as well I had that happen once, with my LRMs AND my 4 MLAS I was able to drop him by the time he got to 200m, I was also backpedaling to keep distance though. It was 4 salvos though still and I had to get a good shot in his side torso that was exposed with my lasers.

As a related story, in a moment of tactical failure, I decided to charge a LRM Awesome with Tag and Artemis in Forest Colony. He was sitting in the water, and I had flanked to a side with a short range Cataphract- AC/20, SRMs, medium lasers. He was about 400m away. I thought, "Ok, I just have to cross about 200m, then he is defenseless! Maybe he won't even notice me until it's too late!" Well. He did notice me. And he started firing. But I wasn't worried- I had an empty arm that I was thinking to use as a shield like a Centurion. Well, 2-3 volleys later and that arm and torso was gone. But I kept pressing, no point in turning back now. It took about 3 more volleys to kill me. I died at about 200m from him. To be fair, he was probably backpedalling away from me as I was moving in. So it took like 6 volleys to kill a fully armored Cataphract that was completely exposed and not attempting to avoid any of the shots. That was 1.5 tons of ammo used. That doesn't sound very OP.

[Phoenix182]

I have no issues reducing damage, but you have to simultaneously increase general viability. As it stands right now it's feast or famine...lrms do absolutely nothing or they obliterate entire teams. It's almost never in between. They should fall into the range of almost always useful for softening, and occasionally able to excel. Of course, that's true of most any weapon type.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Trauglodyte, on 11 March 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

ELO doesn't have anything to do with this. The problem is that, against people who use cover, firing off LRMs based on a spotter is worthless reducing accuracy, damage, and ammunition. Using LRMs via flanking is effective but, even then, smart players will move to cover reducing damage capacity. So, in essence, LRMs are only effective against targets in the open, at which point, they're decimating to the point of rediculousness.

yea we should nerf the game to help stupid people

[One Medic Army]

Simple fix: have AMS work equally well on large volleys as small ones. Switch AMS from a targeted stream of bullets that takes out 4-5 LRMs per volley, to a shotgun blast that takes out 25-50% of each volley.
Suddenly smaller launchers are viable again at the same time AMS is useful and boats are punished.

Oh, and expand the spread so Artemis+TAG+LRM10 no longer lands 75%+ of the missiles on an atlases CT, it should be 50% max.

Edited by One Medic Army, 11 March 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[CMGrendel]

Fortunately, whilst players continue to spout mathematically impossible rhetoric, they can be safely ignored by the designers.

Keep it up guys.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

One Medic Army, on 11 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Simple fix: have AMS work equally well on large volleys as small ones. Switch AMS from a targeted stream of bullets that takes out 4-5 LRMs per volley, to a shotgun blast that takes out 25-50% of each volley.
Suddenly smaller launchers are viable again at the same time AMS is useful and boats are punished.

Oh, and expand the spread so Artemis+TAG+LRM10 no longer lands 75%+ of the missiles on an atlases CT, it should be 50% max.

50% each? woo wheres my stalker with 2 ams I can be immune to missiles

CMGrendel, on 11 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Fortunately, whilst players continue to spout mathematically impossible rhetoric, they can be safely ignored by the designers.

Keep it up guys.

as Ive said before, when companies ignore players it goes badly.
See: The summer of rage in EVE. CCP decided to entirely ignore the players and the end result cost them 20% of their employees
When companies ignore BETA players you get SWTOR and Star Trek Online.
Those HUGE blockbuster games.

[One Medic Army]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 11 March 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

50% each? woo wheres my stalker with 2 ams I can be immune to missiles

Well, if it's a shotgun spread, it'd be 50% reduction for one, and then a further 50% reduction of the remainder for the second.
Giving 75% total.
Of course the numbers are purely hypothetical, but seeing as AMS in tabletop didn't invalidate LRM5s, and could knock out a large portion of an LRM20, I think a ratio based AMS system is the way to go rather than knocking out 5 missiles per volley.

Edited by One Medic Army, 11 March 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Hatsune Neko]

Set it back to Standard Rules 1 point for each LRM missile.
If you want higher get SRM's or maybe use the alternative rules.
it was a missile system called Dumb Fire Missiles each LRM rocket did 2 points each, only down side was you could not lock and it created a smoke blind each time you fired. Great for saturation bombing to be sure.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 11 March 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Direct fire weapons are already better than LRMs. Remember when LRMs did like 1.6 damage and you needed to fire 2 tons to kill an enemy mech? Why would you want to bring those days back?

The use of LRMs to reduce the tactical options of your opponent is one of the biggest reasons to use LRMs. It forces them into fewer and more predictable options. This is not a 'bug' of LRMs, it's a feature!

Plus, let's not fall into the fallacy that LRMs are just there to 'soften up' your opponent. No one took an 85 ton Longbow (2 LRM20, 2 LRM5, 2 Medium Lasers) to just 'soften' an opponent. LRMs kill in Battletech.


LRMs actually move at 360kph in MWO. You must have made a hell of a rocket.

LRMs kill people the same way every other weapon kills people. They're not there to 'soften someone up' but that is a tactical value of a weapon that spreads damage but just about can't miss (remember, 200 to 300kph) and has a long max range but a wide medium range.

Currently on most maps you put some LRM boats about 180 m from each other so they can rain LRMs on anyone closing on a teammate. It's just about foolproof in the right locations.

1.6 damage took forever to kill people because you had slow moving projectiles and people dodged them all the time. Faster projectiles means more missiles on target means more damage in the same timeframe. The point is to make them less of a auto-aim boating weapon that's either feast or famine depending on map or teammates and into a viable weapon to load alongside everything else in your arsenal.

The problem with the 'feature' of LRMs is that deployment is random and it's balanced with TAG against ECM packing teams. In PUG games it results in lopsided and imbalanced results.

You need to balance each weapon to its own deployment. LRMs, projectiles, lasers, they all need pros/cons when dropped on a mech taken by itself. Any weapon you balance based on possible counters and the gear your team is packing is inherently imbalanced in a PUG environment.

As to area denial being a 'feature', the result is that 1/2 of most teams are now LRM boats. The game is now more like a tower defense game than Battletech. How to set your towers up and defend them so that when the enemy has to come into the open you can drop 140 LRMs on him and kill him.

That is NOT improving the tactical layout of the game, it's narrowing viable builds and tactics. When one tactic has the power to trump others. Same reason 3Ls were imbalanced prior to state rewind. 4 Ravens were just about unstoppable due to how the combination of features (ECM, SSRMs, lag shield) worked together. Multiplied into a group of 4 it resulted in an imbalanced environment. It still is a bit imbalanced but ECM is being worked on.

LRMs should be balanced on their own, regardless of other gear your team or the other team fields, and balanced towards being part of a solid mech build. Not a boating tool that's either feast or famine depending on how your team and the other team drops.

[SpiralRazor]

Poll speaks for itself.



This is exactly the same type of low elo person that thinks tryndamere/jax are OP on twisted treeline....And they are, unless you know how to counter...which these kinds of players never, never do and then get mad when you tell them they are doing it wrong

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 11 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

LRMs kill people the same way every other weapon kills people. They're not there to 'soften someone up' but that is a tactical value of a weapon that spreads damage but just about can't miss (remember, 200 to 300kph) and has a long max range but a wide medium range.

Currently on most maps you put some LRM boats about 180 m from each other so they can rain LRMs on anyone closing on a teammate. It's just about foolproof in the right locations.

1.6 damage took forever to kill people because you had slow moving projectiles and people dodged them all the time. Faster projectiles means more missiles on target means more damage in the same timeframe. The point is to make them less of a auto-aim boating weapon that's either feast or famine depending on map or teammates and into a viable weapon to load alongside everything else in your arsenal.

The problem with the 'feature' of LRMs is that deployment is random and it's balanced with TAG against ECM packing teams. In PUG games it results in lopsided and imbalanced results.

You need to balance each weapon to its own deployment. LRMs, projectiles, lasers, they all need pros/cons when dropped on a mech taken by itself. Any weapon you balance based on possible counters and the gear your team is packing is inherently imbalanced in a PUG environment.

As to area denial being a 'feature', the result is that 1/2 of most teams are now LRM boats. The game is now more like a tower defense game than Battletech. How to set your towers up and defend them so that when the enemy has to come into the open you can drop 140 LRMs on him and kill him.

That is NOT improving the tactical layout of the game, it's narrowing viable builds and tactics. When one tactic has the power to trump others. Same reason 3Ls were imbalanced prior to state rewind. 4 Ravens were just about unstoppable due to how the combination of features (ECM, SSRMs, lag shield) worked together. Multiplied into a group of 4 it resulted in an imbalanced environment. It still is a bit imbalanced but ECM is being worked on.

LRMs should be balanced on their own, regardless of other gear your team or the other team fields, and balanced towards being part of a solid mech build. Not a boating tool that's either feast or famine depending on how your team and the other team drops.

Not quite sure how turning LRMs into streak5/10/15/20's is a nerf. If LRMs had the same speed as other missiles they would be incredibly deadly, even at 1.6 damage.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

SpiralRazor, on 11 March 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Poll speaks for itself.



This is exactly the same type of low elo person that thinks tryndamere/jax are OP on twisted treeline....And they are, unless you know how to counter...which these kinds of players never, never do and then get mad when you tell them they are doing it wrong

Poll doesn't really work, I didn't vote, because there are other ways to balance LRM's besides damage.

I think there has to be a combination of things, including re-evaluating missile spread, travel time and ammo.

Also I still think people undervalue AMS when the entire team carries it.

While on it's own it's not impressive, if you have 5 people in an area all with AMS it devastates LRM's.

[Sheraf]

You have reach 666 post o.o

Yes the problem is no one carry AMS anymore, even LRM 5 pre artemis patch did some damage

Edited by Sheraf, 11 March 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

SpiralRazor, on 11 March 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Poll speaks for itself.



This is exactly the same type of low elo person that thinks tryndamere/jax are OP on twisted treeline....And they are, unless you know how to counter...which these kinds of players never, never do and then get mad when you tell them they are doing it wrong

and never want to figure it out on their own when they can complain about it if the devs will listen and break it for them

Nicholas Carlyle, on 11 March 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Poll doesn't really work, I didn't vote, because there are other ways to balance LRM's besides damage.

I think there has to be a combination of things, including re-evaluating missile spread, travel time and ammo.

Also I still think people undervalue AMS when the entire team carries it.

While on it's own it's not impressive, if you have 5 people in an area all with AMS it devastates LRM's.

and the fact that theyre already countered in game if you want to learn how.
But most ppl here seem to be CoD fans that dont WANT to have to learn

[Blue Boutique]

der langsamere, on 11 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Its funny, when LRMs were 1.7 per missile, they were worthless because you could walk through a hail of them and ignore them completely.

NOW that theyre 1.8, theyre so OP they need ECM to counter them and AMS/tactics to avioid them are useless.

ONE TENTH OF A POINT OF DAMAGE DIFFERENCE

We're arguing over one tenth of a damage

Its actually .05556 % of damage per missile. Pretty small yet so OP.