36 replies to this topic

[Lord of All]

Strum Wealh, on 12 March 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

The LB-X ACs have always been described as shotguns in BT (longer and more detailed explanation here), and the PGI's implementation of them as such (that is, modeling the cluster rounds as shotshells rather than Shrapnel shells) is true to the source material.

The Shrapnel shell effect should not be not part of the LB-X series, but part of the standard ACs if/when they get access to Flak rounds (which are explicitly described as using a proximity detonation shell).
"Despite having been a proven technology in ages past, flak autocannon ammunition remains uncommon today. Intended to deal with airborne combatants such as VTOLs and fighters, this ammunition uses proximity charges to detonate in mid-air. While potent against fast-moving targets susceptible to foreign object damage (FOD), flak ammo is less effective against slower-moving targets on the ground because the charges scatter their shrapnel too far and too quickly to benefit from the target’s mobility."
(Tactical Operations, pg. 352)

And we know from Ask the Devs 10 that there were/are plans for introducing alternate ammo types (including, specifically, the LB-Xs' ability to fire slug/HEAP rounds, and perhaps the standard ACs' special munitions as well)...

This, And I use LBX exclusively as my main weapon.

[ArmageddonKnight]

I like the idea.

Problem though. PGI have major issues with splash damage, they cant for the life of them seem to get it working correctly. What ur sugesting is bassicaly turing the LBX10 into a direct fire weapon that does splash damage.
The projectile hits the target doing x damage, then explods into shrapnel doing x damage to y area (splash).

I would not hold my breath on such a change. For 2 reasons, PGI dont like good* idea's, and they dont have a great track record with slpash damage

*good ideas =/= popular ideas. and visa versa.

[Matthew Ace]

I do not understand why there is a worry of making the AC10 obsolete if Slug rounds for LBX10 were introduced. The solution is fairly simple: LBX10 in Slug mode can be made to have benefit of lighter weapon, lower heat, and increased range, but it will have poorer ROF compared to regular AC10.

As for LBX10 still being lackluster, some have raised the idea of raising the overall damage of the weapon. Myself - in addition to that, raise projectile speed; in fact, make it hitscan if there's a need to.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 29 May 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[DaZur]

I'm torn...

I like the idea of a ranged cluster munition however I appreciate the niche roll the present shotgun iteration represents.

To be truthful as 100's have questioned... why bring a LBX to do what an AC should do and do better?

As implemented it is a sawed-off shotgun with a wide open choke. Keeping this teration I wholeheartedly agree there needs to be both a buff in over-all applied per-pellet damage as well as a +chance to crit.

[Lord of All]

Matthew Ace, on 29 May 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

I do not understand why there is a worry of making the AC10 obsolete if Slug rounds for LBX10 were introduced. The solution is fairly simple: LBX10 in Slug mode can be made to have benefit of lighter weapon, lower heat, and increased range, but it will have poorer ROF compared to regular AC10.

As for LBX10 still being lackluster, some have raised the idea of raising the overall damage of the weapon. Myself - in addition to that, raise projectile speed; in fact, make it hitscan if there's a need to.

No balistic weapon (actually none period) should be hit scan ever. It is a design choice to lower cpu overhead. Even lasers are speed of light.

[Tennex]

LBX should have a scattershot and a flakshot option.

so that bboth modes are different from ACs.

[Strum Wealh]

Tennex, on 29 May 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

LBX should have a scattershot and a flakshot option.

so that bboth modes are different from ACs.

Which rather misses the point of the weapon - the LB-X was equipped with "slug" munitions (which actually functioned similarly to the HEAP shells fired by normal ACs, and served as the LB-Xs' equivalent of shotgun slugs) for the breaching of armor, and "cluster" (shotshells filled with explosive submunitions) intended to wreck havoc against internals (as a LB-X slug in TT could only destroy one item at a time, while each submunition in TT could do the same - allowing, for example the 10 submunitions of a LB 10-X cluster round could destroy up to 10 separate items if they all landed in the same area and making it what some call a "crit hunter").

To better reflect the weapon's original design, the MWO LB-X would need to have slug/HEAP round capabilities added, and have each submunition from the cluster round have some bonus against internal equipment (to overcome the equipment hit points and restore its "crit hunter" ability).

By contrast, "proximity-detonated 'flakshot' rounds" (more properly, Shrapnel shells) were an ability granted to Standard ACs via the BT Flak rounds - which, as noted, are generally not terribly effective against anything other than aircraft in flight and unarmored infantry.

[zhajin]

I vote we just make the lbx fire slugs and be done with it. this would indirectly buff the "ac10" by replacing it with a newer tech, which i do not see a problem with. If needed they could bump the heat of the solid slugs to 3, saying that firing a solid slug produces more heat than pellets.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Lord of All, on 29 May 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

No balistic weapon (actually none period) should be hit scan ever. It is a design choice to lower cpu overhead. Even lasers are speed of light.

Game phsyics isn't a continuous simulation: the simulation is run in discreet steps however many times a second, using techniques like sweep testing to make sure fast moving objects don't skip right through solid barriers due to the entire colision "happening" between updates. When it detects that a colision would/should have ocurred it works backwards to figure out exactly when and where. Even super high-end, non real time simulations like the ones aerospace companies use to test rocket designs work this way (more or less). If engagement distances are anything less than cosmic then the travel time for a speed of light "projectile" is going to be significantly less than a single update of the game logic. A single sweep test will cover the entire path of the beam, which is functionally identical to hitscanning.

I agree that the LBX needs something to make it worthwhile. Not sure whether that something is upped per-projectile damage, tighter grouping, or some sort of less-than-physically-accurate fudged spread pattern like a horizontal fan instead of a circle.

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 30 May 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Zyllos]

I think this is the only way to get the LBX to be useful in it's optimal range without making the weapon better than the AC/10 at close range.

The best way to trigger the flak slug is by using the same thing that they do with lasers, a ray trace. When that ray trace sees that it's within 50m (or whatever trigger distance) of a solid object, it explodes, producing the flak blast it does now.

There would have to be two special cases to account for:

A solid object closer than the trigger range
If the flak slug hits a target without exploding

The first case is pretty easy to handle, just make it explode coming out of the gun, acting just like it does now.

The second case is if a mech runs into the flak slug at a perpenticular angle to the flak slug flight path. In this case, I would suggest making the slug act like a normal AC round but at 50% damage.

Edited by Zyllos, 30 May 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

This is similar to the Beehive round

Flak is a close analogy, though

[Chrithu]

I abstained from the vote. I am not against the idea presented by the OP, it' sfine and I don't see an obvious flaw at first glance. On the flipside though I do not think that the LBX 10 has no value in it's current state.

I just played around with the LBX 10 for a while in comparison to the AC 10. While the AC 10 is better at openeing up mechs due to the pinpoint damage the LBX due to it's crit seeking capabilities and it's slightly lower heat does a better job at finishing off mechs. I am currently having a blast with my dual LBX K2. That build works quite well at close to medium range and makes a great mech for flanking maneuvers.

[Strum Wealh]

Gremlich Johns, on 31 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

This is similar to the Beehive round

Flak is a close analogy, though

That would still be closer to the "Flak round" used by standard ACs than to the cluster rounds used by the LB-X family.

To use a similar analogy, the LB-X cluster rounds would be more similar to canister shot.
"The canister round is also known as a case (hence the alternative name of case shot sometimes used for canister shot) and is still used today in modern artillery, particularly in the main armament of tanks with smoothbore cannons. The effect is to turn a large-calibre gun on an armoured fighting vehicle into a giant shotgun."

"Australia will field three types of 120mm operational ammunition for the Abrams. Each nature represents the latest in 120mm ammunition technology. Forty main gun rounds are carried with the selection of ammunition types dependent on the nature of the operation.
Typically, 25 per cent of a bomb-load will be dedicated to the KEW-A2 Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot-Tracer (APFDSD-T) round, whose primary purpose is to defeat armoured targets.
The remaining 75 per cent has been selected to support dismounted infantry operations and the combined arms team. It consists of Canister and Multi-Purpose/Anti-Tank (MPAT) ammunition.
Canister is a non-explosive, muzzle action (no fuse) short-range anti-personnel munition designed to engage dismounted troop concentrations, light vehicles, and strong points.
In its secondary role, canister creates entry points in buildings for infantry, reduces wire obstacles and clears heavy foliage and vegetation. Canister is, in effect, a shotgun shell for a tank, releasing 1100 tungsten balls out to 700m. It is used by tank crew to engage targets in open and complex terrain." (source, circa 2006)

Moreover, it should be noted that LB-X submunitions are supposed to be explosive in nature, closer to anti-armor bomblets or grenades than to simple flechettes or shrapnel.

[Sephlock]

This suggestion, while good, has been around since the beginning of time with neither hide nor hair of hope.

[AgroAlba]

I like the idea, wouldn't mind seeing how it goes!

[Oppresor]

I like the idea of making it a Flak round; this fits in well with my main reason for using the LBX10 Scattershot. We have been having an interesting discussion about the LBX10 and how to use it here: http://mwomercs.com/...doing-it-wrong/ . In general most people don't like it, or at least don't like it as it is; this is where your proposal comes in. PGI please listen to Nexus Omega.

[General Taskeen]

Its been suggested often, but I still wonder how well PGI could implement it given how the netcode has been an issue for hit detection.

If (a big if) it were to be implemented, it would be the first Mech game (to my knowledge) that would feature the "cluster" as a promixity-fuse "flak" rounds, which is essentially what they are anyways since in "lore" they also used them against Aircraft.

From what I understand, all past Mech Warrior games including MW3, MW4, and MW:LL stuck with the "# of cluster rounds per caliber type," but always (with better balance in mind) made the range an advantage and did way more damage in a real-time game instead of taking straight stats from TT, 1 damage per pellet, which doesn't work in a real-time Mech Warrior game.

In any case, the current "wide as a mountain spread" with no bonus damage and no range advantage, of the currently programmed cluster round, would be the worse Anti-Aircraft "flak" in existence in the real world. Heck it would be the most pointless anti-vehicle gun there is. Your tank would be dead before you even got within effective range of 90M to shoot nerf balls at your enemy. Even tanks in Battle Tech equip these "LB-X" guns, because AC/s and LB-X guns are used for long range and are the "future" large bore cannons, except they fire way faster.

Edited by General Taskeen, 19 July 2013 - 02:46 PM.