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Mech Selection *after* Map Selection


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#21 KuruptU4Fun

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:21 AM

View PostTreckin, on 12 March 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:


The way to balance the various weight and chassis is not to force people to play a random map/mech combination.

To balance those differences it would take actually working on each individual chassis, correct.

Its not balance to just say "oh well, instead of tweaking these numbers so they're balanced, lets make em all random so that it wont matter."

Also, the biggest part of my OP, which has so far gone ignored, is that I own many many many many mechs. Boats, all arounders, flamer/MG griefers.

The point of my OP was that it gets boring following the same equip formula for every mech in my mechbay.

At least if I could chose from my readied mechs AFTER map selection, I might actually have a reason to grab another Atlas DC - so i can have one always ready for brawling and one always ready for peekaboo sniping.


I agree, but it helps out PGI's coding problems and people who are so indecisive it's not funny (my fiancee' for example). Because they'd sit there and take 5 minutes to debate with themselves on which mech to run if not just drop out altogether. Which leaves you with either a 8-7 matchup or waiting another short while to have the servers find someone else.

I'm not saying this is pointed at you, but you not only have to figure in your ideal solution, but the lowest common denominator of the player base as well.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 12 March 2013 - 08:23 AM.


#22 Greyfyl

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

http://mwomercs.com/...54#entry2015654

#23 Dishevel

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

View PostZeh, on 12 March 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

It's not a problem. It prevents 8 splatcats on River City and 8 PPC/LRM boats on Alpine.

Here's hoping it never goes away.

When we someday get several maps of various types, I wouldn't be against foreknowledge such as "Ice planet". But you should NEVER EVER know the engagement ranges/map size.

Because most military organizations go into combat with no knowledge of the area and no plan.

#24 Star Captain Obvious Kerensky

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostDishevel, on 12 March 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Because most military organizations go into combat with no knowledge of the area and no plan.


This is a game. MWO is packed full of things that don't make sense if you apply them to real life. Example: How about every time you get headshot, your pilot is killed, and all your XP and Cbills are wiped? It sure would be realistic.

Allowing players to pick their mech after the map is shown would result in exactly what Zeh is describing. Random maps is a good thing.

Edited by Eldragon, 12 March 2013 - 08:25 AM.


#25 Sybreed

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:24 AM

I think we all know what will happen if people can select their mechs after map is shown:

- Alpine Peaks? Better get my LRM boat

- Oh is that Caustic? Time to use my dual gauss cat

#26 KuruptU4Fun

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:25 AM

View PostDishevel, on 12 March 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Because most military organizations go into combat with no knowledge of the area and no plan.


Ummm, not modern military forces. They have terrain layouts, enemy troop movements... Both combatants try to pick the battlefield to maximize their advantages..

#27 Dishevel

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:27 AM

View PostKuruptU4Fun, on 12 March 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:


Ummm, not modern military forces. They have terrain layouts, enemy troop movements... Both combatants try to pick the battlefield to maximize their advantages..

One day there will be a universally agreed upon "SarcMark" to alleviate these embarrassing "Whooshes".

#28 Zeh

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:31 AM

To comment on the latest direction this thread has taken... how exactly do you track troop movements and positions on a hostile planet? No satellites, they would be removed/shot down. Fly-by with a jumpship/dropship? Or just go in with limited data, as best as you can get, and deal with the situation on the ground when you get there? Probably going to be the latter.

Which again, means you don't get to choose engagement range. Even with great intel on a foreign planet, troops could be miles away by the time you arrive.

#29 Jerod Drekmor

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

Ability to select certain map will bring only one thing.....cheese builds in 90% of maches. Dont give me that BS about tactical thinking boys....you care not about tactic at all....you just want to stomp other ppl in easiest way posible.

And for ppl who say "I can choose my mech before fight cuz im tactical genius" well....it dosnt work that way....drop ships cant carry all your 30+ mechs times 8-12 depending on team, and if your Merc Corp/House send you to fight you can take 1-2 mechs max. So if they need you in river city you cant say "sory I have to wait for my brawler mech" you have to move your a s s in whatever you have and win. No enemy will wait.

#30 KuruptU4Fun

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:38 AM

View PostDishevel, on 12 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

One day there will be a universally agreed upon "SarcMark" to alleviate these embarrassing "Whooshes".



Well [sarcasm] make statement here [/sarcasm] is fairly straight forward...

#31 Sprouticus

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

For reasons already posted, this is a terirble idea


It would NOT open up tactical options. What would happen is EXACTLY what happened in MW4, where maps were known in the lobby.

Each map had specific builds that worked for it. All builds were uber specialized (usually boats, but if not then long range vs short range). Sure occasionally someone would fight in thr park and take some LRM's on a city map, but that was the rare exception.


I do NOT want that. Ever. Again.


If you are having problems with varied builds and find them boring, try specialized builds and look for tactical options to use them. I have used close range mechs to great effect on alpine, I just used faster ones. I have used LRMs to great effect on River City, I just flanked the enemy to do it. Again, speed helped.

If you are in an assault....well you have the tonnage to bring multiple ranges.

Edited by Sprouticus, 12 March 2013 - 08:42 AM.


#32 M4NTiC0R3X

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:01 AM

I don't make 'mechs that are optimized for any single tactic anymore, that was so closed beta // easy mode // MW4.

a team with full equipment range where everybody is aware of the field on the other hand...

#33 ragingmunkyz

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:04 AM

View PostJerod Drekmor, on 12 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Ability to select certain map will bring only one thing.....cheese builds in 90% of maches. Dont give me that BS about tactical thinking boys....you care not about tactic at all....you just want to stomp other ppl in easiest way posible.

And for ppl who say "I can choose my mech before fight cuz im tactical genius" well....it dosnt work that way....drop ships cant carry all your 30+ mechs times 8-12 depending on team, and if your Merc Corp/House send you to fight you can take 1-2 mechs max. So if they need you in river city you cant say "sory I have to wait for my brawler mech" you have to move your a s s in whatever you have and win. No enemy will wait.

First of all, please learn some basic grammar, reading this made my brain hurt, but I'll indulge your arguments anyhow.

Have you heard the saying about what happens when you assume things? Speaking for myself and the other tactically-minded players, we want more depth from this game and just another arena fps. We want what PGI keeps promising, "role warfare." PGI keeps using that specific phrase to refer to a type of engagement in which we have to use at least some basic strategy to prevail. I want to be able to set up scouts, ecm coverage, snipers, and a basic plan before a fight, because I believe that will provide much more interesting gameplay.

To your second point, it does work that work that way. First of all, if you are told you need to deploy to a certain planet, you should have some idea of the layout you are going to encounter when you get there, and you would be able to choose which mech would be appropriate before you even left. That aside, there are indeed dropships that can carry that many mechs, so even if you had to respond with what was already in a dropship, you might theoretically have access to quite a few mechs.

Oh, you want proof? http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mammoth, that's a dropship that can carry 8 thousand tons of cargo. That means 80 Atlai. Or how about this one: http://www.sarna.net...moth_(DropShip), 75,121 tons of cargo space, which is 751 Atlai...and one flea. Would you care for a towel to wipe the egg from your face?

#34 Zeh

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:19 AM

View Postragingmunkyz, on 12 March 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Have you heard the saying about what happens when you assume things? Speaking for myself and the other tactically-minded players, we want more depth from this game and just another arena fps. We want what PGI keeps promising, "role warfare." PGI keeps using that specific phrase to refer to a type of engagement in which we have to use at least some basic strategy to prevail. I want to be able to set up scouts, ecm coverage, snipers, and a basic plan before a fight, because I believe that will provide much more interesting gameplay.


Great, so do I. And you can do that now. Get together with like-minded people. Form a team. Assign roles, make basic strategic plans for each possible map and side. Carry them out when you get that map. TADA!

What I DON'T want, is to play on River City with 8+ brawling catapults in the game. They shouldn't ever have had any idea we were going to end up fighting in that particular 2 sqkm space. Maybe the fight could have occurred just outside the city on the river in a giant open plain with 2km+ view distance and no cover. (Simulated by putting the fight in desert/alpine, because that's as close as we can get to varying maps with the limited selection we have) Maybe the fight could have happened in a different part of the city with only single-story buildings and no river.

Variety is the spice of life. There is no tactical or strategic gain IMO from being able to select map. If you want tactics and strategy, plan and use them. You'll need a lot, because the variables of war are many, and they are hard to predict. Also, bring a mech that's not a **** 1/8 of the time.

Edited by Zeh, 12 March 2013 - 09:19 AM.


#35 Mechteric

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:22 AM

I think in the last Ask the Devs they mentioned that their approach will be to have some sort of limited map voting, so that way you get properly matched based on Elo and Mech, then you'll get a chance to make some kind of influence on the map that's going to be loaded. So if you took your LRM boat you may decide you'd vote for Alpine over River City, but if others took close range loadouts the vote may not go your way :)

#36 Matt Minus

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:25 AM

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#37 Dishevel

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostKuruptU4Fun, on 12 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:



Well [sarcasm] make statement here [/sarcasm] is fairly straight forward...

Agreed. Though it is not :Universally Agreed Upon".

#38 kuangmk11

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:30 AM

I hope the future maps highlight the boating issues even more. If your builds are well rounded the map doesn't matter.

#39 jay35

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:31 AM

View PostTreckin, on 12 March 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:


The way to balance the various weight and chassis is not to force people to play a random map/mech combination.

To balance those differences it would take actually working on each individual chassis, correct.

Its not balance to just say "oh well, instead of tweaking these numbers so they're balanced, lets make em all random so that it wont matter."

Also, the biggest part of my OP, which has so far gone ignored, is that I own many many many many mechs. Boats, all arounders, flamer/MG griefers.

The point of my OP was that it gets boring following the same equip formula for every mech in my mechbay.

At least if I could chose from my readied mechs AFTER map selection, I might actually have a reason to grab another Atlas DC - so i can have one always ready for brawling and one always ready for peekaboo sniping.


The random map nonsense invalidates the point of the mechlab, camo, colors, and build strategy.

What some here fail to realize is that the more variety of maps that are released, the increasingly restricted set of uniform, "safe" builds remain viable to play across all maps, and the more players disconnect when a map comes up they either don't want to play or happen to have a build that doesn't work well on it.

Random maps HURTS tactics and strategy. It in no way improves it or benefits it. It is also lazy game design that hurts the fun factor for everyone playing the game, because you're either the one stuck with the wrong mech for the map, or you're on a team with disconnects from people who were.

Tactical/strategic gameplay begins with knowing the map you'll be dropping into before selecting your loadout and camo/colors (or, at a minimum, somehow being able to pre-set which chassis, loadouts and camo/colors you want to use with each specific map, so whichever map comes up, you're piloting a chassis appropriate to the environment, map size, and color scheme, based on the pre-set you selected to be used for that map). PGI can go about it either way, as either way solves the problem. i.e., if they insist on keeping the map selection random, they can provide users a way to preselect which mech builds and camo to use for each map in the game (think Dropship mode writ large), or they can ditch the random map selection and simply tell the player what the next map will be so they can manually select an appropriate mech.

It would resolve a lot of the disconnects, which hurts everyone. It hurts the balance between the two teams, putting the side with more disconnects at an automatic disadvantage, and one that ELO cannot account for. It also wastes the time of the person who disconnected, because that's their only recourse to avoid playing on maps they simply don't want to play on, wasting their time spent loading into a map they don't want to play, and locking up their mech until that round ends.

Forcing everyone to play the random maps is a negative experience for all involved and will continue to be so regardless of what PGI does to try to force it. Being stubborn about it will only hurt their player population, turn people off from playing it, and create more negative sentiment about the MWO experience. The only viable solution is to provide players a way to line up appropriate builds and camo/color schemes for each environment or get rid of the randomness in the first place.

Map voting when you're already in the game with a specific mech does not address this at all, and will only continue the same problems for everyone and will actually encourage or increase a greater number of disconnects. People who don't win the vote will disconnect. And now, the kiddie population that votes for the same map over and over again (c.f., any other FPS game with map voting enabled), will cause even regular players to disconnect from matches when they're sick of playing the same map over and over again.

Edited by jay35, 12 March 2013 - 09:42 AM.


#40 Merky Merc

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:32 AM

View PostDishevel, on 12 March 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Because most military organizations go into combat with no knowledge of the area and no plan.


Quick guize! Our tank is going into a city map replace the cannon with SRMs!!!

Comparing BT/MW to actual militaries is ... silly, at best.





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